Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

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Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby nyamssnanggong'phel » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:17 pm

Dudjom Rinpoche's Counsels from the Heart says that separation of mind and body occurs after bardo of dharmata.

Dzogchen Ponlop's, Mind Beyond Death, says that separation of mind and body occurs before bardo of dharmata

Ch. Namkhai Norbu's new book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" says that peaceful and wrathful deities occur for only those have had "the clear appearance of the deity" during their practice, while Dzogchen Ponlop says it happens for everyone.

If someone can list each phase of the bardo period between dying and rebirth, and their prerequisites that would be great.
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm

i also read or listened somewhere that the peaceful and wrathful deities appear only to those that dont go unconscious after death experience. sorry no source of reference, i cant remember.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:34 pm

Whichever, the deities only appear to practitioners or to one who's lama can be present to recite the Bardo Thodrol.
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:35 pm

where do you get this information?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:36 pm

i thought that they deities appear during the 47-49 day period ? and not just in a flash. and to everyone.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby Sherlock » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:54 pm

ChNN also says that they only appear for those with the relevant empowerments (shitro, guhyagarbha etc).
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:59 pm

i think it includes vajrasattva of certain terma tradition.

i received vajrasattva initiation which includes the 100 peaceful & wrathful deity mandala or what it was. anyway. can anyone confirm this ?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby Sherlock » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:05 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:i think it includes vajrasattva of certain terma tradition.

i received vajrasattva initiation which includes the 100 peaceful & wrathful deity mandala or what it was. anyway. can anyone confirm this ?

That's probably a Shitro empowerment.
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:20 pm

is there some difference between vajrasattva and shitro empowerments ?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby mutsuk » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:49 pm

In Bon, you have :
1. The bardo of the time of death (chi ka'i bar do), when all circumstances have united to lead to an irreversible death. At that time, elements dissolves into one another, in a specific progression, and eventually, the mind is disconnected from the body.

2. The Bardo of the primordially pure Absolute Body (ka dag bon sku'i bar do) which arises immediately after the disconnection of mind and body and lasts the time one is able to remain in the natural state. If one can stay one second, this bardo lasts one second; if one can stay an hour, it lasts an hour, etc. Ordinary beings remain in a state of unconsciousness at that time.

3. Then arises the Bardo of Reality/dharmata (bon nyid bar do) aka the Bardo of the Clear-Light of Reality (bon nyid 'od gsal gyi bar do). It is at that time that the Zhitros appear. They appear : 1. to those who have performed deity yoga completely and 2. to those who have contemplated as least until the 2nd part of the 2nd Vision of Thögel. For other beings, it lasts a fingersnap.

4. After that comes the Bardo of Becoming (srid pa'i bar do) leading to rebirth.

There are similar ideas in the Nyingma tradition although the Bardo of the primordially pure Absolute Body (*ka dag chos nyid bar do) is not much discussed and the arising of the Zhitros in the Bardo of Dharmata can be seen by : 1. those having completed deity yoga and 2. those having contemplated the 1st Vision of Thögel.
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby ngodrup » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:56 pm

Shitro is a mandala of Shi (peaceful deities) and Tro (wrathful deities), 100 in number.
Vajrasattva is the chief of all mandalas. Although he does not appear in the Sitro mandala
as such, Shitro can be understood as a kind of Vajrasattva body mandala. One Guhyagarba
text is called Vajrasattva's magical net. The various cycles of 100 peaceful and wrathful feature
empowerments for each of the deities. And Vajrasattva empowerments do not include Shitro.
Yet, some say that the 100 syllables are correlated with the 100 deities.

When I have heard Bardo teachings, and most recently from Mindrolling Khenpo, he (and others)
have explicitly acknowledged that there are divergent systems-- Longchenpa says one thing, Karma
Lingpa says another, Lochen Dharmashri yet another. On top of that the Sarma schools have
different presentations according to different Tantras.
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:35 pm

mutsuk what do you mean by '' performed deity yoga completely'' ?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:36 pm

ngodrup wrote:Shitro is a mandala of Shi (peaceful deities) and Tro (wrathful deities), 100 in number.
Vajrasattva is the chief of all mandalas. Although he does not appear in the Sitro mandala
as such, Shitro can be understood as a kind of Vajrasattva body mandala. One Guhyagarba
text is called Vajrasattva's magical net. The various cycles of 100 peaceful and wrathful feature
empowerments for each of the deities. And Vajrasattva empowerments do not include Shitro.
Yet, some say that the 100 syllables are correlated with the 100 deities.

When I have heard Bardo teachings, and most recently from Mindrolling Khenpo, he (and others)
have explicitly acknowledged that there are divergent systems-- Longchenpa says one thing, Karma
Lingpa says another, Lochen Dharmashri yet another. On top of that the Sarma schools have
different presentations according to different Tantras.



could be that you experience the bardo differently based on what tantras you practice.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:03 pm

Just go with what your teacher tells you.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:05 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:
ngodrup wrote:Shitro is a mandala of Shi (peaceful deities) and Tro (wrathful deities), 100 in number.
Vajrasattva is the chief of all mandalas. Although he does not appear in the Sitro mandala
as such, Shitro can be understood as a kind of Vajrasattva body mandala. One Guhyagarba
text is called Vajrasattva's magical net. The various cycles of 100 peaceful and wrathful feature
empowerments for each of the deities. And Vajrasattva empowerments do not include Shitro.
Yet, some say that the 100 syllables are correlated with the 100 deities.

When I have heard Bardo teachings, and most recently from Mindrolling Khenpo, he (and others)
have explicitly acknowledged that there are divergent systems-- Longchenpa says one thing, Karma
Lingpa says another, Lochen Dharmashri yet another. On top of that the Sarma schools have
different presentations according to different Tantras.



could be that you experience the bardo differently based on what tantras you practice.


Yes. Precisely.
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby Sherlock » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:08 pm

ngodrup wrote:Shitro is a mandala of Shi (peaceful deities) and Tro (wrathful deities), 100 in number.
Vajrasattva is the chief of all mandalas. Although he does not appear in the Sitro mandala
as such, Shitro can be understood as a kind of Vajrasattva body mandala. One Guhyagarba
text is called Vajrasattva's magical net. The various cycles of 100 peaceful and wrathful feature
empowerments for each of the deities. And Vajrasattva empowerments do not include Shitro.
Yet, some say that the 100 syllables are correlated with the 100 deities.

When I have heard Bardo teachings, and most recently from Mindrolling Khenpo, he (and others)
have explicitly acknowledged that there are divergent systems-- Longchenpa says one thing, Karma
Lingpa says another, Lochen Dharmashri yet another. On top of that the Sarma schools have
different presentations according to different Tantras.


There are standalone Vajrasattva empowerments, but the Nam Chos Shitro is one that clearly involves visualizing Vajrasattva with the peaceful and wrathful deities.
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby ngodrup » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:09 am

Cool. I have not had occasion to practice the Nam Cho version.
Chokling Vajrasattva sometimes includes Shitro, but in Karling, not.
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:40 am

i dont remember was it the namchos shitro, i received from Choje Akong Tulku Rinpoche last spring but the empowerment specifically included visualizing the shitro.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby hop.pala » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:15 am

Ch. Namkhai Norbu's new book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" says that peaceful and wrathful deities occur for only those have had "the clear appearance of the deity" during their practice, while Dzogchen Ponlop says it happens for everyone.


It is maybe so explanable,that exist two form.They are practice have apperance in" manifested form" ,aware on the appearance and can it handle.By nonpracticer however "latent form" ,not conscious on the deities,and can not handle,have no choice,leaded only by karma.Maybe so can be right ,the two interpretation.All nonenlightened creature have conscious,and not conscious experience equally.
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Re: Contradictory Bardo teachings within same tradition

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:51 am

im wondering that at what point should the shitro appear ? while the body and mind are not yet separated after the clear light of death ? or after the mind has left the body? and does the sipai bardo start immediately after the mind and body separates?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
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