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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:17 pm 
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Dudjom Rinpoche's Counsels from the Heart says that separation of mind and body occurs after bardo of dharmata.

Dzogchen Ponlop's, Mind Beyond Death, says that separation of mind and body occurs before bardo of dharmata

Ch. Namkhai Norbu's new book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" says that peaceful and wrathful deities occur for only those have had "the clear appearance of the deity" during their practice, while Dzogchen Ponlop says it happens for everyone.

If someone can list each phase of the bardo period between dying and rebirth, and their prerequisites that would be great.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm 
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i also read or listened somewhere that the peaceful and wrathful deities appear only to those that dont go unconscious after death experience. sorry no source of reference, i cant remember.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:21 pm
Posts: 260
Whichever, the deities only appear to practitioners or to one who's lama can be present to recite the Bardo Thodrol.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm
Posts: 1358
where do you get this information?

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:36 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm
Posts: 1358
i thought that they deities appear during the 47-49 day period ? and not just in a flash. and to everyone.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:54 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:14 pm
Posts: 854
ChNN also says that they only appear for those with the relevant empowerments (shitro, guhyagarbha etc).


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:59 pm 
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Posts: 1358
i think it includes vajrasattva of certain terma tradition.

i received vajrasattva initiation which includes the 100 peaceful & wrathful deity mandala or what it was. anyway. can anyone confirm this ?

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:05 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:14 pm
Posts: 854
KonchokZoepa wrote:
i think it includes vajrasattva of certain terma tradition.

i received vajrasattva initiation which includes the 100 peaceful & wrathful deity mandala or what it was. anyway. can anyone confirm this ?

That's probably a Shitro empowerment.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm
Posts: 1358
is there some difference between vajrasattva and shitro empowerments ?

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:49 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:35 pm
Posts: 483
In Bon, you have :
1. The bardo of the time of death (chi ka'i bar do), when all circumstances have united to lead to an irreversible death. At that time, elements dissolves into one another, in a specific progression, and eventually, the mind is disconnected from the body.

2. The Bardo of the primordially pure Absolute Body (ka dag bon sku'i bar do) which arises immediately after the disconnection of mind and body and lasts the time one is able to remain in the natural state. If one can stay one second, this bardo lasts one second; if one can stay an hour, it lasts an hour, etc. Ordinary beings remain in a state of unconsciousness at that time.

3. Then arises the Bardo of Reality/dharmata (bon nyid bar do) aka the Bardo of the Clear-Light of Reality (bon nyid 'od gsal gyi bar do). It is at that time that the Zhitros appear. They appear : 1. to those who have performed deity yoga completely and 2. to those who have contemplated as least until the 2nd part of the 2nd Vision of Thögel. For other beings, it lasts a fingersnap.

4. After that comes the Bardo of Becoming (srid pa'i bar do) leading to rebirth.

There are similar ideas in the Nyingma tradition although the Bardo of the primordially pure Absolute Body (*ka dag chos nyid bar do) is not much discussed and the arising of the Zhitros in the Bardo of Dharmata can be seen by : 1. those having completed deity yoga and 2. those having contemplated the 1st Vision of Thögel.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:58 pm
Posts: 630
Shitro is a mandala of Shi (peaceful deities) and Tro (wrathful deities), 100 in number.
Vajrasattva is the chief of all mandalas. Although he does not appear in the Sitro mandala
as such, Shitro can be understood as a kind of Vajrasattva body mandala. One Guhyagarba
text is called Vajrasattva's magical net. The various cycles of 100 peaceful and wrathful feature
empowerments for each of the deities. And Vajrasattva empowerments do not include Shitro.
Yet, some say that the 100 syllables are correlated with the 100 deities.

When I have heard Bardo teachings, and most recently from Mindrolling Khenpo, he (and others)
have explicitly acknowledged that there are divergent systems-- Longchenpa says one thing, Karma
Lingpa says another, Lochen Dharmashri yet another. On top of that the Sarma schools have
different presentations according to different Tantras.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm
Posts: 1358
mutsuk what do you mean by '' performed deity yoga completely'' ?

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:36 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm
Posts: 1358
ngodrup wrote:
Shitro is a mandala of Shi (peaceful deities) and Tro (wrathful deities), 100 in number.
Vajrasattva is the chief of all mandalas. Although he does not appear in the Sitro mandala
as such, Shitro can be understood as a kind of Vajrasattva body mandala. One Guhyagarba
text is called Vajrasattva's magical net. The various cycles of 100 peaceful and wrathful feature
empowerments for each of the deities. And Vajrasattva empowerments do not include Shitro.
Yet, some say that the 100 syllables are correlated with the 100 deities.

When I have heard Bardo teachings, and most recently from Mindrolling Khenpo, he (and others)
have explicitly acknowledged that there are divergent systems-- Longchenpa says one thing, Karma
Lingpa says another, Lochen Dharmashri yet another. On top of that the Sarma schools have
different presentations according to different Tantras.



could be that you experience the bardo differently based on what tantras you practice.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:03 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
Just go with what your teacher tells you.

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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:05 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:21 pm
Posts: 260
KonchokZoepa wrote:
ngodrup wrote:
Shitro is a mandala of Shi (peaceful deities) and Tro (wrathful deities), 100 in number.
Vajrasattva is the chief of all mandalas. Although he does not appear in the Sitro mandala
as such, Shitro can be understood as a kind of Vajrasattva body mandala. One Guhyagarba
text is called Vajrasattva's magical net. The various cycles of 100 peaceful and wrathful feature
empowerments for each of the deities. And Vajrasattva empowerments do not include Shitro.
Yet, some say that the 100 syllables are correlated with the 100 deities.

When I have heard Bardo teachings, and most recently from Mindrolling Khenpo, he (and others)
have explicitly acknowledged that there are divergent systems-- Longchenpa says one thing, Karma
Lingpa says another, Lochen Dharmashri yet another. On top of that the Sarma schools have
different presentations according to different Tantras.



could be that you experience the bardo differently based on what tantras you practice.


Yes. Precisely.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:08 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:14 pm
Posts: 854
ngodrup wrote:
Shitro is a mandala of Shi (peaceful deities) and Tro (wrathful deities), 100 in number.
Vajrasattva is the chief of all mandalas. Although he does not appear in the Sitro mandala
as such, Shitro can be understood as a kind of Vajrasattva body mandala. One Guhyagarba
text is called Vajrasattva's magical net. The various cycles of 100 peaceful and wrathful feature
empowerments for each of the deities. And Vajrasattva empowerments do not include Shitro.
Yet, some say that the 100 syllables are correlated with the 100 deities.

When I have heard Bardo teachings, and most recently from Mindrolling Khenpo, he (and others)
have explicitly acknowledged that there are divergent systems-- Longchenpa says one thing, Karma
Lingpa says another, Lochen Dharmashri yet another. On top of that the Sarma schools have
different presentations according to different Tantras.


There are standalone Vajrasattva empowerments, but the Nam Chos Shitro is one that clearly involves visualizing Vajrasattva with the peaceful and wrathful deities.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:09 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:58 pm
Posts: 630
Cool. I have not had occasion to practice the Nam Cho version.
Chokling Vajrasattva sometimes includes Shitro, but in Karling, not.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:40 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm
Posts: 1358
i dont remember was it the namchos shitro, i received from Choje Akong Tulku Rinpoche last spring but the empowerment specifically included visualizing the shitro.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:15 am 
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Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 3:48 am
Posts: 242
Quote:
Ch. Namkhai Norbu's new book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" says that peaceful and wrathful deities occur for only those have had "the clear appearance of the deity" during their practice, while Dzogchen Ponlop says it happens for everyone.


It is maybe so explanable,that exist two form.They are practice have apperance in" manifested form" ,aware on the appearance and can it handle.By nonpracticer however "latent form" ,not conscious on the deities,and can not handle,have no choice,leaded only by karma.Maybe so can be right ,the two interpretation.All nonenlightened creature have conscious,and not conscious experience equally.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:51 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm
Posts: 1358
im wondering that at what point should the shitro appear ? while the body and mind are not yet separated after the clear light of death ? or after the mind has left the body? and does the sipai bardo start immediately after the mind and body separates?

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


Top
 Profile  
 
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