Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

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Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby duffster1 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:59 pm

I heard Chogyal Namkhai Norbu say in the webcast today that if one talks about rigpa to non practitioners one is breaking samaya.Im just trying to understand what he meant.If one tells a loved one or a friend what they are practicing and goes into a little detail wouldn't this be harmless. Wouldn't it be of some benefit for another to hear the sanity of it all?
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Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby heart » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:09 pm

duffster1 wrote:I heard Chogyal Namkhai Norbu say in the webcast today that if one talks about rigpa to non practitioners one is breaking samaya.Im just trying to understand what he meant.If one tells a loved one or a friend what they are practicing and goes into a little detail wouldn't this be harmless. Wouldn't it be of some benefit for another to hear the sanity of it all?


No, you talk about the teacher, the marvels of the Dzogchen lineage and teachings. But discussing what direct introduction is might do harm. I think he explained pretty good.

That said, me any many others have actually discussed these matters here and on other forums, regretfully.

/magnus
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Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:42 am

duffster1 wrote:I heard Chogyal Namkhai Norbu say in the webcast today that if one talks about rigpa to non practitioners one is breaking samaya.Im just trying to understand what he meant.If one tells a loved one or a friend what they are practicing and goes into a little detail wouldn't this be harmless. Wouldn't it be of some benefit for another to hear the sanity of it all?


Generally speaking, one keeps these things private. Not like clandestine private where it's like you're hiding something... Just similar to how you wouldn't go blabbing about your sex life with your partner to people outside the relationship. You're not hiding it, but it's not for others' ears. That kinda thing. In my experience, the more we share about our practice with others--especially those not connected to the transmission--the more the progress of our practice dissipates. It also has a way of causing us to objectify and conceptualize our meditative experiences and grasp onto them. I suppose the latter two points wouldn't be so once one had reached a certain level of stability in instant presence, but at least until then we are very much in dualism vision, as Rinpoche says, so we're subject to that vision's consequences.

But I think talking about Dzogchen in a general way, to someone you've determined seems interested, like explaining something like the fact that we all have primordially pure nature fully -endowed with beneficial qualities, but that this nature is temporarily obscured by ignorance, and that only non-conceptual direct experience can allow us to awaken to the knowledge of that true nature and purify that ignorance... I general statements like these are fine if the person shows interest. And if they want to know how one goes about such a non-conceptual meditation, then you explain that it's best if one hears about it from someone with thorough experience of this path and let them know they can tune in to Rinpoche's webcasts if they like.
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Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby Sönam » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:06 am

heart wrote:
That said, me any many others have actually discussed these matters here and on other forums, regretfully.

/magnus


True, but we also have to considere that ChNN's webcasts are (for most) open, with peoples making the choice to see them. And it's the same for such forum we use to talk between "us", most choose to be their ... so there is no moquery or such type of destructives energies. But it's right we better no do it.

S
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby dzoki » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:22 am

In any case talking about rigpa to those who have not discovered (here I mean Dharma practitioners, in my experience, specifically kagyu and nyingma) it will lead nowhere, they won´t believe you. They will insist that it is difficult to recognize the nature of the mind, that it is somewhere far away, that it can be seen only by those who have spent years in retreat, that rigpa cannot be recalled in times of difficulty which one can encounter living an ordinary life etc. So what´s the point in talking about rigpa to the others? Unless they discover it for themselves hearing about it will not help them. People usually take the defeated stand as described above or they confuse some experiences for rigpa and then they go around and announce to everybody that they have discovered rigpa :D. I learned from my own experience that it is better not to talk about it.
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Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby Dronma » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:15 pm

heart wrote:That said, me any many others have actually discussed these matters here and on other forums, regretfully.

/magnus


I agree with Magnus, and personally I feel deeply sad about it.
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Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:31 pm

dzoki wrote:They will insist that it is difficult to recognize the nature of the mind, that it is somewhere far away, that it can be seen only by those who have spent years in retreat, that rigpa cannot be recalled in times of difficulty which one can encounter living an ordinary life etc.


This is sadly sooo true. This attitude is very prevalent. Even if it were kosher to talk about one's experiences [which it's not], to even hint that one had even the slightest clue what rigpa really is would arouse the highest suspicion.
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Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby Unity » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:01 pm

Sorry if I intrude... I'm interested in Rigpa and have found it without a formal teacher and Samayas, so I'm not bound by Samayas.
So would it be in order for me if I would expound on it to outsiders, perhaps even to people who haven't ever heard of it, or who are not even capable of understanding what I'm saying to them? Not that I would use that name "rigpa" in any case, except to people who have heard of it before, to others I would describe it in words they might be able to understand, i.e. in plain English (or German).

Edit: Just to prove that I'm not confused and that I know what I'm talking about:
Looking through outer phenomena into the spaciousness of Mind (dharmakaya), finding there a sort of "shimmering", sort of subtle energy (sambogakaya), thinking, am I deluded, are that projections, or flashing neurons in my brain? But it was not. Thinking about the Heart Sutra, form = emptiness, emptiness = form, what does it mean, something is missing here. There is a third, which is missing in the equation, which is: Rigpa! :-) Form and emptiness are both appearance aspects in and of Rigpa, it is like ice and vapor, they are the same, they don't exist as objects themselves, they are just appearances of water. The same applies to form and emptiness which are appearances of and in Rigpa.
Edit: Rigpa is the luminous essence. I would say it is the conscious beingness, the being consciousness, the Mind itself in which everything appears, it has some certain qualities which can be observed by looking into one's own mind. The most significant quality, in my opinion, is its self-reflective-ness which enables it to have conscious experiences. There are some other qualities as well, e.g. spaciousness (in buddhist terminology called dharmakaya), energy (sambogakaya) which also appears as luminosity, and there is a sort of highly fluctuating creativity, difficult to describe, it's more fluid than quicksilver (is that nirmanakaya?).
Then there is another significant quality, which I would call hologram-likeness. You know that pieces of holograms all contain the whole picture in them. The holographic quality of the rigpa essence is responsible for all sorts of things, e.g. how cells in biological organisms communicate, and that we are all connected, and that everything is transparent and can be seen from anywhere else, regardless of distances in space or time.
There would be more to say about it. I hope that more people get to know it and see it with their own inner eyes, the eyes of the heart. I believe that it's not so difficult to see it, but it takes a lot of courage and openness, and only very few people have these requirements, and the others are not interested to "see" it, anyway. I tried to show it to others, but it's really hard to find anyone who wants to see it at all. :-(

Oliver
Last edited by Unity on Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby gentle_monster » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:17 pm

You are deluding yourself, my friend.

The only thing you have found is yet another intellectual trip.
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Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby Unity » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:26 pm

I would say, you are quick to judge without examination.

gentle_monster wrote:You are deluding yourself, my friend.

The only thing you have found is yet another intellectual trip.
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Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby conebeckham » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:39 pm

The first rule about Dzogchen is, we don't talk about Dzogchen.

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Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby philji » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:59 pm

At last. People get it.
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Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby theanarchist » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:25 pm

Unity wrote:Sorry if I intrude... I'm interested in Rigpa and have found it without a formal teacher and Samayas, so I'm not bound by Samayas.
So would it be in order for me if I would expound on it to outsiders, perhaps even to people who haven't ever heard of it, or who are not even capable of understanding what I'm saying to them? Not that I would use that name "rigpa" in any case, except to people who have heard of it before, to others I would describe it in words they might be able to understand, i.e. in plain English (or German).

Edit: Just to prove that I'm not confused and that I know what I'm talking about:
Looking through outer phenomena into the spaciousness of Mind (dharmakaya), finding there a sort of "shimmering", sort of subtle energy (sambogakaya), thinking, am I deluded, are that projections, or flashing neurons in my brain? But it was not. Thinking about the Heart Sutra, form = emptiness, emptiness = form, what does it mean, something is missing here. There is a third, which is missing in the equation, which is: Rigpa! :-) Form and emptiness are both appearance aspects in and of Rigpa, it is like ice and vapor, they are the same, they don't exist as objects themselves, they are just appearances of water. The same applies to form and emptiness which are appearances of and in Rigpa.
Edit: Rigpa is the luminous essence. I would say it is the conscious beingness, the being consciousness, the Mind itself in which everything appears, it has some certain qualities which can be observed by looking into one's own mind. The most significant quality, in my opinion, is its self-reflective-ness which enables it to have conscious experiences. There are some other qualities as well, e.g. spaciousness (in buddhist terminology called dharmakaya), energy (sambogakaya) which also appears as luminosity, and there is a sort of highly fluctuating creativity, difficult to describe, it's more fluid than quicksilver (is that nirmanakaya?).
Then there is another significant quality, which I would call hologram-likeness. You know that pieces of holograms all contain the whole picture in them. The holographic quality of the rigpa essence is responsible for all sorts of things, e.g. how cells in biological organisms communicate, and that we are all connected, and that everything is transparent and can be seen from anywhere else, regardless of distances in space or time.
There would be more to say about it. I hope that more people get to know it and see it with their own inner eyes, the eyes of the heart. I believe that it's not so difficult to see it, but it takes a lot of courage and openness, and only very few people have these requirements, and the others are not interested to "see" it, anyway. I tried to show it to others, but it's really hard to find anyone who wants to see it at all. :-(

Oliver




Sounds like it could be a kind of spiritual/meditational experience.

But you fool yourself and others if you think that's dzogchen.

Please go and check those experiences with a qualified dzogchen teacher, and if you don't want to do that, feel free to sell it somewhere in the esoteric supermarket, but please not under the name of dzogchen.
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Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby theanarchist » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:30 pm

Unity wrote:I would say, you are quick to judge without examination.



You claim that you are a dzogchen master without needing a teacher.


There is the occasional very VERY rare case of a person who attained realisation of vajrayana/dzogchen without having a human teacher. Like Garab Dorje, or Tilopa. Why do you assume that you are one of these ultra special human beings?
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Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby Soap-Bubble » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:17 pm

I'm against strict following of samayas, in a blind sort of way. You follow them if you see it's benefitial, you don't if you see it's benefitial not to follow them by word. If a rule creates a hindrance or moves sincerely interested people away from the way of realization, you might be misunderstanding it.

There's no need to describe what you personally perceive to be rigpa and there's no need make it sound appealing or advertise it. But you can give some potentially very helpful information to those who're interested.

Unity wrote:Edit: Just to prove that I'm not confused and that I know what I'm talking about

Unfortunately, you can't prove anything with words. Not only rigpa, but many stray experiences are completely beyond words, whether you use your own or those words used in books.

But the advice to talk to a dzogchen master is good. I'm not saying it because I think you're wrong, I'm saying it because just a few days ago I ran into an interesting situation.

We were gathered around a qualified person, and one completely new guy who just came about started to ask him questions. It turned out his story was that he discovered rigpa on his own many years ago. He asked a lot of questions and gradually moved over to questions like "what is rigpa", etc. In the end, he grew puzzled and said that the conversation made it clear to him that state he so often experienced couldn't be rigpa.
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Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?

Postby ConradTree » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:50 pm

theanarchist wrote:There is the occasional very VERY rare case of a person who attained realisation of vajrayana/dzogchen without having a human teacher. Like Garab Dorje, or Tilopa. Why do you assume that you are one of these ultra special human beings?



Garab Dorje is a myth.

And Tilopa had human teachers. Many human teachers in fact.

"A song attributed to Tilopa, though it is not included in the canonical works, even claims he had no human guru, contradicting the history of four transmissions mentioned above. This discrepancy is sometimes explained as Vajradhara having given only the blessing, while the instructions came from his human teachers." - Mahamudra and Related Instructions
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