Dzogchen VS Mahamudra..why?

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Dzogchen VS Mahamudra..why?

Postby Fa Dao » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:13 pm

Maybe I am just an uneducated rube but perhaps someone can explain to me why there is so much dissension. "Theyre the same" VS "theyre not the same". This seems to crop up a lot and I for one just dont get it. On the one hand you have Garab Dorje, Vimalamitra, Vairocana, Manjushrimitra, etc etc up until present day. All great Totally Realized Masters. On the other hand you have Naropa, Tilopa, Marpa, Milarepa, etc etc up until present day..also great Totally Realized Masters. It doesn't take much reading to see that their methods were different...vive la diferance...But ultimately Total Realization is Total Realization, right??? If a person hears/reads about Garab Dorje or Milarepa and one of those strikes a chord in them isn't that the most important thing? Hopefully somebody here can definitively clear this up for me....because I just don't get it
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen VS Mahamudra..why?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:01 pm

Fa Dao wrote:Maybe I am just an uneducated rube but perhaps someone can explain to me why there is so much dissension. "Theyre the same" VS "theyre not the same". This seems to crop up a lot and I for one just dont get it. On the one hand you have Garab Dorje, Vimalamitra, Vairocana, Manjushrimitra, etc etc up until present day. All great Totally Realized Masters. On the other hand you have Naropa, Tilopa, Marpa, Milarepa, etc etc up until present day..also great Totally Realized Masters. It doesn't take much reading to see that their methods were different...vive la diferance...But ultimately Total Realization is Total Realization, right??? If a person hears/reads about Garab Dorje or Milarepa and one of those strikes a chord in them isn't that the most important thing? Hopefully somebody here can definitively clear this up for me....because I just don't get it



Mahāmudra is, generally speaking, a gradual path, Dzogchen isn't.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

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Re: Dzogchen VS Mahamudra..why?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:27 pm

"When we recognise the true nature of every thought, we shall recognise the arising and ceasing of thoughts as the display of the dharmakaya, the true nature of reality. This direct insight that quickly and directly leads to complete awakening, has been given different names. It is called the Great Seal (Mahamudra), The Great Perfection (Maha-ati) or the Way of the Middle (Madhyamaka). We also speak of this highest dimension as the Perfection of Wisdom (Prajnaparamita).

These different terms do not designate distinct things but point to the one and the same reality, the same awakening. Even though different names are used to refer to different traditional paths, in their essence they are identical and do not exclude one another. Therefore we should not create artifical distinctions and cling to any of these terms and paths, identify with them and reject the others."
Gendun Rinpoche Heart Advice from a Mahamudra Master
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen VS Mahamudra..why?

Postby Fa Dao » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:29 pm

Ok Malcolm..I hear that. But if I understand correctly in Mahamudra you go through ngondro etc first and then get pointing out instructions and then you work with that..i.e a "gradual path" However, in Dzogchen, you get direct introduction and then you work with that. Still seems to me kinda gradual. Please bear in mind I am NOT trying to argue a point. I am trying to get some of these subtle distinctions clear in my head..just like the other thread Rigpa and nature of Mind...it seems that it is important to have these subtleties very clearly understood as it is easy to go astray if you dont..know what I mean?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen VS Mahamudra..why?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:33 pm

Fa Dao wrote:Ok Malcolm..I hear that. But if I understand correctly in Mahamudra you go through ngondro etc first and then get pointing out instructions and then you work with that..i.e a "gradual path"
Not necessarily. There are different approaches, some gradual, some direct. One of my lama gave us Mahamudra pointing out instructions without even asking us if we had taken refuge (I hadn't taken refuge yet).
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen VS Mahamudra..why?

Postby Fa Dao » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:50 pm

Greg, yes I was generalizing a bit. But while I somewhat agree with your previous post that its not a good idea to intellectually get caught up in distinctions it is equally important to have a clear understanding of those distinctions because as most here know it is so easy to get caught up in ones own mental constructs, think you have something and consequently waste precious time. It was not my intention to start a huge bullshit argument over the merits of either system. I am 51 years old..who knows how much time I have left? I do know however that what time I do have is not worth arguing over stupid shit..I just want clarification and eventually Realization
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen VS Mahamudra..why?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:08 pm

And distinctions are not mental constructs?
I am 51 years old..who knows how much time I have left? I do know however that what time I do have is not worth arguing over stupid shit..I just want clarification and eventually Realization
Then, my advice would be: Get pointing out instructions (in either tradition) and go for broke.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen VS Mahamudra..why?

Postby Dronma » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:12 pm

Different lineages of teachers, and different methods of practising. That's all.
After all, does it matter through which path one will reach at the top of the mountain?
Of course, the scenery of the routes through eastern path or through northern path is different, but since all routes lead to the same top, why to worry?
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Dzogchen VS Mahamudra..why?

Postby wisdom » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:13 pm

Fa Dao wrote:it seems that it is important to have these subtleties very clearly understood as it is easy to go astray if you dont..know what I mean?


It depends on the practitioner and their capacity how the path will go. I've heard realization can be instant, at the moment of direct introduction, that it can take three months, two years, six years, one lifetime (liberation in the bardo) or in the next lifetime. Given that other paths talk about "countless eons" and so forth, we can consider all of these to be relatively rapid.

I found "Approaching the Great Perfection" by Van Schaik to be very useful. He compares the differences between simultaneous and gradualist approaches within Dzogchen itself. It seems that it also depends on your teacher, some teachers prefer one or the other approach. Schaik lists four approaches:

I. Simultaneous method with simultaneous realization
II. Simultaneous method with gradual realization
III. Gradual method with simultaneous realization
IV. Gradual method with gradual realization

There is no hard and fast rule about what a student will be capable of, nor what a master must teach. Each master, lineage and school have their own approaches.
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Re: Dzogchen VS Mahamudra..why?

Postby Dronma » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:18 pm

Fa Dao wrote:who knows how much time I have left? I do know however that what time I do have is not worth arguing over stupid shit..


Excellent thought!!! :twothumbsup:
It should be published with golden letters in all Dharma forums of the web.
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Dzogchen VS Mahamudra..why?

Postby flavio81 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:44 pm

Fa Dao wrote:Greg, yes I was generalizing a bit. But while I somewhat agree with your previous post that its not a good idea to intellectually get caught up in distinctions it is equally important to have a clear understanding of those distinctions because as most here know it is so easy to get caught up in ones own mental constructs, think you have something and consequently waste precious time. It was not my intention to start a huge bullshit argument over the merits of either system. I am 51 years old..who knows how much time I have left? I do know however that what time I do have is not worth arguing over stupid shit..I just want clarification and eventually Realization


Hi Fa Dao,

We covered this topic not so long ago, please take a look:

viewtopic.php?f=100&t=6459&hilit=semde+in+drag

The shortest and best answer (at least for me, a Dzogchen practitioner):
"(Mahamudra) is dzogchen semde in drag." -- Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen VS Mahamudra..why?

Postby Fa Dao » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:53 pm

cool..thanks
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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