Jes Bertelsen?

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:52 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Its a fact that TU authorized him to teach Dzogchen.

That's pretty remarkable. Did TU authorize any other westerners?



I have no idea. BTW, this does not mean that this guy is something like a lineage holder of Chokling Tersar or anything like that. But Dzogchen is a specific kind of knowledge that does not require a lot of elaborations to be communicated.

Kunzang Dechen Lingpa regularly excoriated his students (meaning us) for asking him to give empowerments all the time, insisting over and over again that knowledge of Dzogchen does not require this; and further, that the activities of giving empowerments and so on were mere child's play.
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:Kunzang Dechen Lingpa regularly excoriated his students (meaning us) for asking him to give empowerments all the time, insisting over and over again that knowledge of Dzogchen does not require this; and further, that the activities of giving empowerments and so on were mere child's play.

I have heard you say that before, and I have often thought about it. Was KDL's point that empowerments are basically a waste of time?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:57 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Kunzang Dechen Lingpa regularly excoriated his students (meaning us) for asking him to give empowerments all the time, insisting over and over again that knowledge of Dzogchen does not require this; and further, that the activities of giving empowerments and so on were mere child's play.

I have heard you say that before, and I have often thought about it. Was KDL's point that empowerments are basically a waste of time?



Not for childish people, apparently.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby heart » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Jikan wrote:
Finally, even though I said I would hold my tongue on Bertelsen...



Its a fact that TU authorized him to teach Dzogchen.


Really, how do you know that?

/magnus
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:10 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Jikan wrote:
Finally, even though I said I would hold my tongue on Bertelsen...



Its a fact that TU authorized him to teach Dzogchen.


Really, how do you know that?

/magnus



Because one of our mutual friends who was in Nagi Gonpa at the time confirmed it to me when I asked him about it.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Adamantine » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:11 pm

My understanding (also from a close disciple of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, who is in a position to know) is that he was merely given permission to verbally recount some of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche's statements on mind's nature to his then modest group of about 30 students. He was never authorized to "teach dzogchen" perse, recognized as an accomplished or realized Dzogchenpa, or anything of the sort.

If there is any evidence that anything more was said to him, publicly or privately, I am open to hearing it. However I think this is an instance of gross exaggeration along with the game of telephone. . .

I won't reach a decided verdict however until one of TU's sons or heart disciples decide to make a public statement.
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:30 pm

This is what I was informed of:

This transcribed account has been removed at Malcolm's request.


The only person who can confirm this with any authority is Eric. I suggest someone ask.

M
Last edited by Adamantine on Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: The one who offered this account to Malcolm did not want it public.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Adamantine » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:This is what I was informed of:

This transcribed account has been removed at Malcolm's request.


The only person who can confirm this with any authority is Eric. I suggest someone ask.

M


Well I agree, both Andreas and Eric need to come out in the open and say if this account, similar ones, and Jes' own claims are true and legitimate. Since they would have been the translators, they would be the ultimate source to appeal to for clarification. My own source claims that they deny these accounts wholeheartedly. I have good faith that this person was there at the time and is still now in a position to know the inside scoop. Regardless, second hand will always be second hand, not to mention third, and now it is up to Andreas and Eric to step up and confirm or deny what actually transpired in their own words, especially because there's too many people here putting contradictory words in their mouths for them.
Last edited by Adamantine on Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: The one who offered this account to Malcolm did not want it public.
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:00 am

Malcolm wrote:This is what I was informed of...

I have to say that's pretty amazing. Maybe this guy is a real cig car ba.
Is that quote from an email or some other document?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:06 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:This is what I was informed of...

I have to say that's pretty amazing. Maybe this guy is a real cig car ba.
Is that quote from an email or some other document?



It doesn't matter -- this is the main reason why Dzogchen was so hard to find in Tibet. All those people whose lively hoods depended on merit making activities were furious that Dzogchen asserts that accumulating merit and so on is unnecessary for realizing buddhahood.

M
Last edited by Adamantine on Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: removed off-topic image and reference
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Barney Fife » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:10 am

i am familiar with the situation and all the parties involved, and have heard all versions of the jes bertelsen story. i can confirm that the version presented by the learned malcolm represents the version of jes bertelsen and his students, and that the version presented by the accomplished Adamantine represents the version of tulku urgyen rinpoche's close disciples.

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:18 am

Barney Fife wrote:i am familiar with the situation and all the parties involved, and have heard all versions of the jes bertelsen story. i can confirm that the version presented by the learned malcolm represents the version of jes bertelsen and his students, and that the version presented by the accomplished Adamantine represents the version of tulku urgyen rinpoche's close disciples.

b.f.



Well it is a good thing we have versions. It is starting to sound like Rashoman:

Image
Last edited by Adamantine on Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed off-topic comment which broke TOS
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby kirtu » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:31 am

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:This is what I was informed of...

I have to say that's pretty amazing. Maybe this guy is a real cig car ba.
Is that quote from an email or some other document?


It doesn't matter -- this is the main reason why Dzogchen was so hard to find in Tibet. All those people whose lively hoods depended on merit making activities were furious that Dzogchen asserts that accumulating merit and so on is unnecessary for realizing buddhahood.


M


That's nonsense (the image of the poor Dzogchenpas being hounded, discriminated against, etc. here) (maybe not historically though). Of course merit making is unnecessary for realizing Buddhahood. just like polishing a brick. Merit making is primarily for purification. But not for realizing Buddhahood directly.

Kirt
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:32 am

OK, let's not get excited. I don't know how to get in touch with Erik, but I'm pretty sure there are people reading this who do, so, can someone contact him?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Barney Fife » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:36 am

Thank you Malcolm.
Have you read Jes Bertelsen's book, "Essence of Mind: An Approach to Dzogchen"? It would be interesting for me and perhaps others to hear your perspective on the teachings contained in the book.

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:37 am

kirtu wrote: Of course merit making is unnecessary for realizing Buddhahood.

Kirt



Sapan is rolling in his grave.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby kirtu » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:58 am

Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote: Of course merit making is unnecessary for realizing Buddhahood.

Kirt



Sapan is rolling in his grave.


He can't be because he is in a Pure Land. Anyway, this is getting unexpectedly heated so I'll need to close down the thread for a bit for a cooling off on an otherwise excellent discussion.

Kirt
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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby kirtu » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:47 pm

Reopening the thread. Play nicely. He-said-she said or Rashomon type references should be supported.

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby monktastic » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:40 am

I have contacted Mr. Kunsang, though I do not know him personally. Stay tuned (or better yet, contact him directly, if you actually know him).
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Sönam » Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:34 am

This is a quite interesting thread, it enlight many point on unique specificity of Dzogchen practice, The Great Perfection ... I stay tuned.

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