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From both vitaka/vicara to only vicara to none - Dhamma Wheel

From both vitaka/vicara to only vicara to none

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
starter
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From both vitaka/vicara to only vicara to none

Postby starter » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:19 am

Hello Friends,

Is my understanding of the first three stages of Samadhi development in the following sutta correct? My comments are in blue.

"When, monk, this meditative composure is developed in this way and made much of, you should develop this meditative composure with vitaka and vicara [constantly apply the mind to the breath and try to maintain the mind on the breath], you should develop it without vitaka but with mere vicara [no effort is needed to apply the mind to the breath anymore, with effortless watch of the breath, but still as an outsider without unification with the breath], you should develop it without vitaka and vicara [mind is unified with the breath, and is not an outsider anymore], you should develop it with piti, you should develop it without piti, you should develop it with sukha, you should develop it with equanimity."

Is it possible that piti and sukha are initially not present when first developing the stage without vitaka and vicara?

Many thanks and metta to all,

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Reductor
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Re: From both vitaka/vicara to only vicara to none

Postby Reductor » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:48 am

Do you agree sammasamadhi and jhana are the same? If so, then I would say no. After vitakka and vicara arise piti and sukha do as well. Piti and sukha then seem to persist after vitakka and vicara have ceased.

Which sutta is that, by the way?

Edit:
Your comments seem fine, but what is meant by being an 'outsider'?

santa100
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Re: From both vitaka/vicara to only vicara to none

Postby santa100 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:32 pm

If you're more of a visual person, the following schematic might help in showing the relationship of piti/sukkha and vitaka/vicara..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81n ... jh.C4.81na

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daverupa
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Re: From both vitaka/vicara to only vicara to none

Postby daverupa » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:40 pm


Reductor
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Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: From both vitaka/vicara to only vicara to none

Postby Reductor » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:44 pm

Thank you, Dave.

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Re: From both vitaka/vicara to only vicara to none

Postby starter » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:14 am


Reductor
Posts: 1381
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:52 am
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: From both vitaka/vicara to only vicara to none

Postby Reductor » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:21 am


starter
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Re: From both vitaka/vicara to only vicara to none

Postby starter » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:59 pm

"So, perhaps a better question would be "should vitakka and vicara be stilled if piti and sukha are not yet present?" To which I would say "No". To allow vitakka and vicara to lapse first, before the arising of piti and sukha, would be disorderly rather than systematic, and thus not very much in the spirit of how the Buddha wanted us to practice. It would also fly in the face of the various jhana descriptions."

-- I agree with you and many thanks for pointing it out. I remember in a Dhamma talk Ajahn Anan also emphasized the importance of maintaining midnfulness on vitaka and vicara for generating piti and sukha.

"I would like to know from which schools those jhana practitioners come from. Is it their position that they can develop jhana without the supports, or is it your conclusion?"
-- I know such practitioners who developed jhana without right view (of 4 noble truths) and right mindfulness (of body/feeling/mind/dhammas). They are in mundane path.

Your comments on my other posts would be greatly appreciated.

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