Dzogchen and Mahamudra experiences

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Dzogchen and Mahamudra experiences

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed May 22, 2013 7:38 pm

Hello,

I have a question about the practice of Dzogchen and Mahamudra.

- What would be the real difference regarding the experience between a Mahasiddha and a Dzogchenpa ?
- Where do we have THAT certain difference and where does it start in the practice ?

I do know it on paper and in my personal practice some differences, but how does it look like in the practice of somebody else?

Key points

- abding in emptiness
- the self emergent Wisdoms as lights
- No objekt as well subjekt
- The Dzogchen or Nature integrated in the visions
- The methods to get the Thodgal visions


Thanks at beforehand for your attention

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra experiences

Postby asunthatneversets » Wed May 22, 2013 8:32 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Hello,

I have a question about the practice of Dzogchen and Mahamudra.

- What would be the real difference regarding the experience between a Mahasiddha and a Dzogchenpa ?
- Where do we have THAT certain difference and where does it start in the practice ?

I do know it on paper some differences but how does it look like in the practice?

Thanks at beforehand for your attention

Best wishes
KY


The end result is the same, but the paths are different. Mahamudra in general is generation stage [mahayoga] and completion stage [anuyoga], so it is quite different from Dzogchen in that respect. There is Essence (formless) Mahamudra, but apart from the four yogas, Essence Mahamudra is resting in the state of Mahamudra, which ends up being essentially equivalent to the practice of Tregchö in Dzogchen. The four yogas also being essentially Gampopa's rendition of the four naljors of Dzogchen semde.
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra experiences

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed May 22, 2013 8:47 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Hello,

I have a question about the practice of Dzogchen and Mahamudra.

- What would be the real difference regarding the experience between a Mahasiddha and a Dzogchenpa ?
- Where do we have THAT certain difference and where does it start in the practice ?

I do know it on paper some differences but how does it look like in the practice?

Thanks at beforehand for your attention

Best wishes
KY


The end result is the same, but the paths are different. Mahamudra in general is generation stage [mahayoga] and completion stage [anuyoga], so it is quite different from Dzogchen in that respect. There is Essence (formless) Mahamudra, but apart from the four yogas, Essence Mahamudra is resting in the state of Mahamudra, which ends up being essentially equivalent to the practice of Tregchö in Dzogchen. The four yogas also being essentially Gampopa's rendition of the four naljors of Dzogchen semde.



Tashi delek A,

Thanks for your post.

If the path is different than the fruit must also be different. The fruit is seen by me as the time to get there. :)
That is not certain for as well a Dzogchenpa as well a Mahasiddha because it will depend of a lot of things.
So we discuss here some utmost lucky practice from these traditions.
Then is Bardo also nice to know what will both encounter there.........


But what about the lights and Bardo?

- That is realy Dzogchen and can Mahasiddhas attain the rainbow body in this very live?
I heard that was exclusive only possible in Dzogchen.
- And what about the combination of tong pa nyid and bliss de ba called De tong zung jug ?
- And how is Bardo expierenced for the Mahasiddha or Mahamudra practitioner?

Mutusg Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra experiences

Postby asunthatneversets » Wed May 22, 2013 9:55 pm

Some questions about Dzogchen and Mahamudra differences came up recently in a discussion with Malcolm:

Malcolm wrote:
While it is standard idea that buddhahood realized through sutrayāna is not complete, the realization of Mahamudra and the realization of Dzogchen are completely identical. The path however is very different and the way the term "rigpa" is used in various traditions varies. For example, what the term "rig pa" means in Mahamudra literature is a little different than what it means in Dzogchen because the explanation of the basis, path and result is completely different.

Q: Malcolm, it surprises me that you equate the realizations so downright. I've gotten the impression that there are actual differences between the two culminations. Nothing would satisfy my synthesizing brain more, and that's exactly why I'm weary of thinking that their fruit is equal. What about thogal? At the moment, Mahamudra resonates more with me.

Malcolm wrote:
The result of Mahamudra and Dzogchen are completely identical, only the path is different. But we do not talk about "rig pa" on the path of Mahamudra in the same way it is used in Dzogchen. The basic difference is the Mahamudra works from the outside in via the two stages. Dzogchen works from the inside out. Between the two, Dzogchen is less dependent on mind, and is therefore more rapid. Gampopa's Mahamudra teachings are very influenced by Dzogchen Semsde.

Q: Two stages? And what kind of a difference in rapidness are we talking?

Malcolm wrote:
Mostly, it is a matter of effort, Dzogchen is easier than practicing deity yoga, doing tummo, etc. Dzogchen is for lazy people who are in a hurry.

Q: Mahamudra necessarily entails deity yoga, tummo, etc.? How come the realization of the teachings of the historical Buddha are considered not complete?

Malcolm wrote:
In general, Mahamudra entails deity yoga, etc. Mahamudra is the state of realizing one's state through a yidam such as Kalacakra or the other way to realize Mahamudra is through Guru Yoga. These are the two paths of Mahamudra. The teachings of the Agamas/NIkayas resuilts solely in the eradication of afflictions, not the attainment of omniscience. Mahayāna (Zen, etc.) also only takes one to the eleventh bhumi, and not total buddhahood (thirteenth bhumi).

Q: I don't see how the four yogas fit into the two steps/paths you mention. Is there something I'm missing?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the four yogas are practiced alongside the two stages/guru yoga by most practitioners. The four yogas technically are part of sutra mahamudra, actually, according to how it is presented by Kongtrul. They are presented as part of Mahamudra in the five fold system of Drikung and Drukpa, but this is integrated with creation stage and Guru Yoga.

Q: And they parallel the four naljors of Dzogchen Semde, yes? You mention "sutra mahamudra". I've heard the distinction before, but I don't understand what it distinguishes from mantra/tantra and essence mahamudra. Will you clarify? Also, if the path of mahamudra and dzogchen is dissimilar, why do we find the 4 yogas and the 4 naljors in parallel? It's not that I haven't studied this, but it induced confidence to get it confirmed.
"The Sutrayana approach to Mahamudra is seen as a very profound method because it does not require any of the sophisticated and complex tantric rituals, deity yoga practices, or samayas. It is a very simple sutra approach, yet it conveys the direct transmission of the tantric essence of awakening."
- excerpt from 'Wild Awakening'


Malcolm wrote:
According to a personal communication to me from Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso, Sutra Mahamudra was contrived by Gampopa for those who were not ready for Tantra. In sutra mahamudra there is no empowerment and no samayas, etc. Essence Mahamudra is based on a specific type of empowerment called the descent of the wisdom vajra (CF Jnanasiddhi by Indrabhuti), and the tantric mahamudra involves the practice of the two stages. The former is more a path of Guru Yoga, the latter, of course, the two stages. Sutra Tantra and Essence Mahamudra is a system of the Karma Kagyu, It does not exist in the other Kagyu schools. In Drukpa and Drikung, the four yogas are included as part of the Sahaja Mahamudra, but this also depends on a kind of introduction. Usually a Cakrasamvara or a Vajrayogini empowerment.

Q: When for example, the Mahamudra talks about the realization of one taste as "liberation from the duality of perceiver and perceived" and "by the power of the multiplicity of all phenomena appearing as one taste, the expansion of the great expression of wisdom, the realization of one taste itself manifesting as multiplicity" Would you say such description is related to the 13th bhumi apprehension of all phenomena as being the display of his own wisdom?

Malcolm wrote:
One taste is not total realization. The result of Mahamudra according to the four yogas is achieved only at greater non-meditation. Even first stage bodhisattvas are free from the duality of dualistic perception while in a state of equipoise.

Q: Malcolm Smith you said that the Mahamudra result is the same as Dzogchen, does that mean a Mahamudra practitioner will realize primordial state through their own empowerments? How about say, an 11th bhumi Zen practitioner? Does that practitioner realize primordial state?

Malcolm wrote:
The difference [in realization between 11th and 13th bhumis], as recounted in such tantras as the Samputa, etc, is that a buddha of the eleventh or twelfth bhumi does not apprehend all phenomena as being the display of his own wisdom. This is more or less the classical Indian presentation of Vajrayāna path structures generally followed in Sakya and Nyingma. The Kagyus on the other hand consider the eleventh and twelfth bhumis to be bodhisattva stages rather than stages of buddhahood. But in general the Kagyus, like the Gelupgas, are in many respects more influenced by Sutra than Sakya and Nyingma.
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra experiences

Postby Astus » Wed May 22, 2013 11:13 pm

An interesting question, to give the practical differences. As for all the theoretical things, there is already a thread: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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