The difference between causation and reflection

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Re: The difference between causation and reflection

Postby MalaBeads » Wed May 15, 2013 4:29 pm

heart wrote:The difference between causation and reflection is self-liberation. Self-liberation is the only approach that is free from activity.

/magnus


Yes, I would agree, Magnus. Nicely put.

Thank you.
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Re: The difference between causation and reflection

Postby MalaBeads » Thu May 16, 2013 12:01 am

Yes, Asunthatneversets, this is helpful. Especially this.

:anjali:


asunthatneversets wrote: Stabilization and familiarization with vidyā will make it so a) new karma isn't being generated and/or b) the influence of karma which is being generated is greatly diminished. Once vidyā is stable, the latent karma, which resides in the form of propensities, then has to exhaust itself, the fuel which kept the fire going is removed so karma just burns out.
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Re: The difference between causation and reflection

Postby MalaBeads » Thu May 16, 2013 8:10 pm

MalaBeads wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:You mean what is the difference between apprehending phenomena through the Mirror-like wisdom (Skt. ādarśajñāna; Tib. མེ་ལོང་ལྟ་བུའི་ཡེ་ཤེས་, Wyl. me long lta bu'i ye shes) of Aksobhya instead of the karmically causal mental poison of aversion?


No, I don't think thats what i meant. If that were so, all of dzogchen would be reducible to the realm of Aksobhya. Somehow, i don't think thats so.


Sorry, my thinking on this wasn't very clear. T. Choyki is absolutely correct that the mirror functions the same whether it is the realm of Aksobhya or dzogchen. Its just that theres much more to dzogchen than just the mirror-like wisdom. Hope thats clearer.

Often, I'm an idiot.
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Re: The difference between causation and reflection

Postby T. Chokyi » Sat May 18, 2013 10:50 pm

Sorry, my thinking on this wasn't very clear. T. Choyki is absolutely correct that the mirror functions the same whether it is the realm of Aksobhya or dzogchen. Its just that theres much more to dzogchen than just the mirror-like wisdom. Hope thats clearer.


No problems. If one looks at everything in ones condition, one is seeing all our karma manifest, yet that isn't "us" either, it is dream like, like the reflection in the mirror, this is how our "world" or dimension manifests what we experience. If we open up and allow this to be reflected back to us, we can see our temporary condition, it's what the karmic traces that are with our own consciousness created. Since each person has their own "dimension", no two are totally alike, we can see our own limitations if we truly understand we created all this which we are experiencing as our own situation.

CHNNR teaches us to discover the mirror, so he often teaches about looking at our own face, when we see our own face we are observing ourselves, he teaches that the mirror needs a secondary cause for the reflections, so he is teaching about this inward direction of looking into the mirror because we have our clarity as part of our nature, so seeing clearly what is placed in front of this mirror includes seeing our own condition reflected back to us, we have to know something about ourselves. Rinpoche mentions seeing the blemish or defect on our own face, so when he teaches he often mentions this inward direction, we put our own face in the mirror, we see our reflection there, and if there is some defect we can see it, our nature has this reflective clear limpid quality. This makes sense in practice, since the condition of the individual is pivotal in "self liberation", our state, seeing how we are conditioned, our limitation, working with our circumstance.
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Re: The difference between causation and reflection

Postby MalaBeads » Sat May 18, 2013 11:00 pm

T. Chokyi wrote:
Sorry, my thinking on this wasn't very clear. T. Choyki is absolutely correct that the mirror functions the same whether it is the realm of Aksobhya or dzogchen. Its just that theres much more to dzogchen than just the mirror-like wisdom. Hope thats clearer.


No problems. If one looks at everything in ones condition, one is seeing all our karma manifest, yet that isn't "us" either, it is dream like, like the reflection in the mirror, this is how our "world" or dimension manifests what we experience. If we open up and allow this to be reflected back to us, we can see our temporary condition, it's what the karmic traces that are with our own consciousness created. Since each person has their own "dimension", no two are totally alike, we can see our own limitations if we truly understand we created all this which we are experiencing as our own situation.

CHNNR teaches us to discover the mirror, so he often teaches about looking at our own face, when we see our own face we are observing ourselves, he teaches that the mirror needs a secondary cause for the reflections, so he is teaching about this inward direction of looking into the mirror because we have our clarity as part of our nature, so seeing clearly what is placed in front of this mirror includes seeing our own condition reflected back to us, we have to know something about ourselves. Rinpoche mentions seeing the blemish or defect on our own face, so when he teaches he often mentions this inward direction, we put our own face in the mirror, we see our reflection there, and if there is some defect we can see it, our nature has this reflective clear limpid quality. This makes sense in practice, since the condition of the individual is pivotal in "self liberation", our state, seeing how we are conditioned, our limitation, working with our circumstance.


:namaste:
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Re: The difference between causation and reflection

Postby MalaBeads » Sun May 19, 2013 12:42 am

MalaBeads wrote:
T. Chokyi wrote:
Sorry, my thinking on this wasn't very clear. T. Choyki is absolutely correct that the mirror functions the same whether it is the realm of Aksobhya or dzogchen. Its just that theres much more to dzogchen than just the mirror-like wisdom. Hope thats clearer.


No problems. If one looks at everything in ones condition, one is seeing all our karma manifest, yet that isn't "us" either, it is dream like, like the reflection in the mirror, this is how our "world" or dimension manifests what we experience. If we open up and allow this to be reflected back to us, we can see our temporary condition, it's what the karmic traces that are with our own consciousness created. Since each person has their own "dimension", no two are totally alike, we can see our own limitations if we truly understand we created all this which we are experiencing as our own situation.

CHNNR teaches us to discover the mirror, so he often teaches about looking at our own face, when we see our own face we are observing ourselves, he teaches that the mirror needs a secondary cause for the reflections, so he is teaching about this inward direction of looking into the mirror because we have our clarity as part of our nature, so seeing clearly what is placed in front of this mirror includes seeing our own condition reflected back to us, we have to know something about ourselves. Rinpoche mentions seeing the blemish or defect on our own face, so when he teaches he often mentions this inward direction, we put our own face in the mirror, we see our reflection there, and if there is some defect we can see it, our nature has this reflective clear limpid quality. This makes sense in practice, since the condition of the individual is pivotal in "self liberation", our state, seeing how we are conditioned, our limitation, working with our circumstance.


You know, the mirror is really a perfect device for seeing non-duality as well. If you are standing in front of a mirror, you are looking outside while at the same moment you are looking inside at yourself.

It reminds me of a device that Thich Nhat Hanh gave to a group of practitioners in early 1983. He said hold up your hand in front of your face and ask yourself, "Is it inside or outside of you?"

Looking outside, can you see inside?
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Re: The difference between causation and reflection

Postby T. Chokyi » Sun May 19, 2013 9:18 pm

MalaBeads wrote:
You know, the mirror is really a perfect device for seeing non-duality as well. If you are standing in front of a mirror, you are looking outside while at the same moment you are looking inside at yourself.

It reminds me of a device that Thich Nhat Hanh gave to a group of practitioners in early 1983. He said hold up your hand in front of your face and ask yourself, "Is it inside or outside of you?"

Looking outside, can you see inside?


Very nice.

When looking outside I can see the results of all of my karma, this is the maturation of karma, my environment, my body, supports for practice, whatever is there it is what I came in with.

If I mirror that back to myself, then I see my condition. I know that karma is unique to me, it isn't exactly someone elses "dimension"; how this is separate from my own mind, it can't be, the mind created all this, it was my actions that planted the karmic traces in my consciousness to cause this.
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Re: The difference between causation and reflection

Postby MalaBeads » Sun May 19, 2013 10:30 pm

T. Chokyi wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:
You know, the mirror is really a perfect device for seeing non-duality as well. If you are standing in front of a mirror, you are looking outside while at the same moment you are looking inside at yourself.

It reminds me of a device that Thich Nhat Hanh gave to a group of practitioners in early 1983. He said hold up your hand in front of your face and ask yourself, "Is it inside or outside of you?"

Looking outside, can you see inside?


Very nice.

When looking outside I can see the results of all of my karma, this is the maturation of karma, my environment, my body, supports for practice, whatever is there it is what I came in with.

If I mirror that back to myself, then I see my condition. I know that karma is unique to me, it isn't exactly someone elses "dimension"; how this is separate from my own mind, it can't be, the mind created all this, it was my actions that planted the karmic traces in my consciousness to cause this.


Very nice or not, I think there is still some confusion about the whole issue of reflections and causes. So I'd like to pursue this a bit more if its okay.

As I understand it now, a reflection is not a cause. Its just a reflection. The appearance of the reflection causes nothing except its own reflection.

You see, you say above, "whatever is there it is what I came in with" which seems to me to deny cause (as if there are no actions involved).

Maybe a better question is: what causes reflections to appear? Are they just spontaneous and "uncaused"? You seem to be saying the appearance of reflections is karma. (I really do get slightly lost here) and maybe I'm just trying to understand karma which I've been taught is impossible for ordinary beings.

It's okay if you don't respond. I don't mean to be difficult but I know I am not really clear about these two issues: reflections and causation.

I appreciate all the help you've given me.

:namaste:
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Re: The difference between causation and reflection

Postby wisdom » Sun May 19, 2013 10:49 pm

MalaBeads wrote:
Maybe a better question is: what causes reflections to appear? Are they just spontaneous and "uncaused"? You seem to be saying the appearance of reflections is karma. (I really do get slightly lost here) and maybe I'm just trying to understand karma which I've been taught is impossible for ordinary beings.


What causes reflections to appear is the minds innate capacity to reflect any image that appears before it. However nothing causes the reflections to appear. You don't have to do anything, contrive anything, hope for anything, or perform any action to make the mind reflect things. Therefore I wouldn't call the minds innate ability to reflect a "cause" since it arises from nothing, for no reason, without having to do any action and furthermore the reflections also vanish, also without cause, without having to do anything either.

However although this self liberation of appearances is spontaneous and uncontrived, still one has to be able to abide in their own true nature for it to be effective. If you can't abide in rigpa, trying to apply this level of meditation will be fruitless.

MalaBeads wrote:I don't mean to be difficult but I know I am not really clear about these two issues: reflections and causation.


Reflection: Minds innate capacity to reflect any image that appears before it without limitation and without needing to do anything to make the reflections happen. Although external events have their own causality that made them come together, the appearance of those events within the mind is spontaneous, open and free.

Causation: When reflections appear, we grasp them with dualistic thinking and projection, falling into the illusion that the reflections are separate from the base of our own true nature. As a result, we create karmic impressions which become stored and later come to fruition when we continue to act with the delusion of duality. This is the fundamental error that causes us to cycle within samsara: non-recognition. This grasping is what creates causality within our mind, a cycle of karmic seeds being planted, born, coming to full fruition, and creating further seeds.
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Re: The difference between causation and reflection

Postby MalaBeads » Sun May 19, 2013 11:12 pm

What does that mean, wisdom, "be fruitless"? Can you be specific?
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Re: The difference between causation and reflection

Postby wisdom » Mon May 20, 2013 10:19 pm

wisdom wrote:
However although this self liberation of appearances is spontaneous and uncontrived, still one has to be able to abide in their own true nature for it to be effective. If you can't abide in rigpa, trying to apply this level of meditation will be fruitless.


MalaBeads wrote:What does that mean, wisdom, "be fruitless"? Can you be specific?


In this context it means that trying to abide in the mirror-like nature of the mind without direct introduction will not lead to Buddhahood, instead it will at best generate positive or neutral karma that will lead to rebirth in a higher realm which in itself isn't terrible, but its not the goal of Dzogchen. So its fruitless in the sense that it won't bear the fruit that you want, which is Buddhahood, and instead will bear a different fruit all together such as rebirth in the formless realm.
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Re: The difference between causation and reflection

Postby oldbob » Mon May 20, 2013 11:48 pm

:namaste:

:good: :good: :good: All good posts!!!

My 2 cents is that it is very good to intellectually understand the traditional framework of Dzogchen, at whatever stage you are at, because then, when you have experiences that go beyond words, you will have a workable context, and framework, to intellectually understand them through. This is why it is helpful to have many words written about Dzogchen, though the words are NOT the same as direct experience.

Also, reading about Dzogchen may make someone curious enough to go and take direct introduction from a Dzogchen Master, and enter the path.

All issues contained in the words of philosophical Dzogchen, are totally resolved by a moment’s contemplation.

This is the one point that answers all: in awareness, all philosophical / intellectual matters are resolved! It is like trying to write on water or air: a different dimension, where words have no place to stick to.

So --- if more intellectual understanding is sought, try this modal on for size. :smile:

The Tibetans use the analogy of the thief in an empty house to explain how the display, or show (reflections), of karmic traces of attachment and aversion no longer function (are fruitless) when they appear, when informed by Rigpa. Karmic thoughts, karmic dreams may appear, but they no longer have the power to create a reaction (cause) for further karma: in awareness, they self liberate AS they appear.

To look at how a Dzogchen Master would handle the issues of reflections, causation, and fruit, it is useful to look at the modal of how things appear in awareness, or unawareness, as set out by ChNNR in “Dzogchen the Self-Perfected State.” P53.

http://www.amazon.com/Dzogchen-Self-Per ... 1559390573

Less than $7, used.

It is suggested that you read the original to avoid my typing mistakes and to add the footnotes, and italics. Note for Mods – this is an unrestricted text, being quoted under “fair use.”

The long quote is necessary to answer the question in the thread, in a good way.

Begin quote
___________________________________________________________________

(The all caps are mine to slow down the reading.)

In the Dzogchen teachings, the primordial state of the base is not defined only as being void, but is explained by having three aspects or characteristics, called the “three primordial wisdoms,” essence, nature and energy.

The essence is the void, the real condition of the individual and of all phenomena. This base is the condition of all individuals, whether they are aware of it or not, whether they are enlightened or in transmigration. It is said to be “pure form the beginning” (ka dag), because, like space, it is free of all impediments, and is the basis of all the manifestations in existence.

The manifestation of the primordial state in all its aspects, its ”clarity,” on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said to be “self perfected” (lhun drup) because it exists spontaneously from the beginning, like the sun which shines in space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment. For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second. Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the situation, and one categorizes the perception, thinking, “That’s a flower, it’s red, it has a specific scent, and so on.” Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the individual’s state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don’t follow them, and don’t become caught up in mental judgments, they too are part of our natural clarity.

The third of the three primordial wisdoms is energy. It’s characteristic is that it manifests without interruption. The explanation of energy in Dzogchen, is fundamental to understanding the base. All dimensions, whether pure or impure, material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or another of energy. TO EXPLAIN HOW BOTH TRANSMIGRATION AND ENLIGHTENMENT ORIGINATE, THREE WAYS IN WHICH ENERGY MANIFESTS ARE DESCRIBED. These three modes of energy are called “tsel” ((rtsal), “rolpa” (rol ba) and “dang” (gdangs), names that cannot be translated into Western languages.

To understand the manifestation of energy as TSEL, we can take the example of what happens when a crystal ball is placed near a window. The crystal is pure and transparent, but when rays of light strike it, they refract into colored lights around all around the room. These lights are not inherent to the crystal itself, but manifest when the appropriate secondary cause is present, in this case, the sun’s rays. The crystal ball symbolizes the primordial state of the individual, which consists of essence, nature, and energy. The colored rays which spread in the room are an example of the natural manifestation of energy, appearing in relation to the individual as an object. In the MOMENT of the manifestation of the energy of the primordial state, if one RECOGNIZES it as a PROJECTION of one’s own ORIGINAL qualities, one REALIZES oneself in the dimension of pure vision. If the opposite happens, and one PERCEIVES the rays and colors as being EXTERNAL to oneself, one MANIFESTS IMPURE VISION. Thus the CAUSE of BOTH visions, Samsara and Nirvana is the SAME: the MANIFESTATION of the LIGHT of the primordial state.

As an example of ROLPA, we should imagine that instead of the colors reflecting externally to the crystal, this time they reflect INSIDE it, not appearing outside the crystal, but within its own surfaces. In the same way, the ENERGY of the primordial state can manifest within its own dimension “SUBJECTIVELY” in relation to the individual. This happens, for example, in the bardo, the intermediate state between death and rebirth, when the hundred peaceful and wrathful deities appear. They ARE NOT EXTERNAL to the individual, but are the MANIFESTATIONS of his or her natural self-perfected qualities. The appearance of these divinities, however, only arises, for those who have, in their own life time, received transmission from a master and applied the method of transformation specific to the peaceful and wrathful divinities. For an ordinary being there arises only the manifestation of “sounds, rays and lights,” which may last only for an instant, and most often are a cause of alarm. For this reason, great importance is given in tantrism to knowledge of the MODE OF ENERGY OF ROLPA, which is the BASIS of ALL of the various methods of transformation.

To understand DANG we should think of the crystal itself, and of its pure and transparent form. If we put a crystal ball at the center of a colored Mandala and walk around it, the crystal will by turns, appear to assume the colors of the cardinal points of the mandala at which we successively arrive, while at the same time remaining, in itself, pure and transparent. This is an EXAMPLE of the INHERENT CONDITION of ENERGY itself as it really is, in any kind of manifestation what-soever. Sometimes instead of dang the term “gyen” (rgyan) is used, meaning “ornament,” because in the state of contemplation, all manifestations of energy are “perceived” as ornaments of the primordial state.
______________________________________________________________________
End quote

We have to keep in mind that tsel, dang, and rolpa are three aspects of the same thing: how “energy” can appear to our awareness from within the state of Rigpa.

Please keep in mind that if you are NOT in a state of awareness then all of these descriptions do NOT apply to you and your experience, yet.

Once you have taken the direct introduction, and have some confidence in, and stability in, a direct experience of Rigpa, then come back and re-read Rinpoche’s explanation of tsel, dang and rolpa. Then, from your direct experience, it will make a different kind of sense.

In Dzogchen – The Self-perfected State, ChNNR mentions about the fruit of Dzogchen. P56

Begin quote
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
In the fruit, or realization, they [the calm state, movement and presence] manifest as Dharmakaya, Sambogakaya, and Nirmanakaya, the three “purified dimensions.” The Dharmakaya corresponds to the condition of the essence, the voidness of all phenomena. However, presence is here totally awakened. The state of the Dharmakaya is beyond form or color, like limitless space. The Sambogakaya is the self-perfected dimension of the manifestation of energy. It corresponds to the natural energy of the base, LINKED to presence. The Nirmanakaya is the dimension of manifestation whether pure or impure, perceived as an object in relation to one’s own state, although there no longer remains any trace of dualism. Presence is totally integrated with the external dimension.

No matter how many analyses one does, one should not forget that one is always referring to one’s own condition, to the aspects of one’s own body voice and mind.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
End quote

So combining this with all the other posts in this thread, you now have a good idea of reflections, causations, the fruit and the fruitless, within the scope of Dzogchen.

Hope this helps. Feel free to ask questions, everyone. I am very happy to see many experienced, kindly people posting on DW, and other sites, about Dzogchen. This means that the Teachings have found a home in the West!

Lots of good blah blah here. Thank you mod team!!! Thank you David!!!! :group:

Long life to the Dzogchen Masters. May they live long, in good health and with success in all things.

:heart:
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Re: The difference between causation and reflection

Postby MalaBeads » Tue May 21, 2013 12:29 am

:heart:
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