Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby CrawfordHollow » Tue May 07, 2013 7:48 pm

Oushi,

The seperation of the dzogchen teachings based on ability of the practitioner has nothing to do with the view. You can read about it in the Yeshe Lama, basically the path for the highest individual is the path of togal, and the students with lesser ability are advised to do phowa so they can be liberated in the bardo. Actually, the Supreme Source that you quoted comes from the Semde tradition of dzogchen which is actually considered a lesser vehicle than the upadesha section. There is no teaching of dzogchen that denies or "discards" karma as being the condition of sentient beings wandering in samsara. The highest dzogchen texts are presented in a ground, path, and fruition schema. Under the ground there are always teachings on how the base is not recognized so sentient beings are forced to wander in samsara under the influece of karma. You can read about this in Tsele's Circle of the Sun, which I quoted earlier. This text, as well as the Yeshe Lama (both of which are restriced to those who have actually had the pointing out) are from the highest view of dzogchen, the mengnagde class.

So you are absolutely wrong in saying that the teachings of karma are for those with less ability. I also don't appreciate your passive aggressive comment suggesting that I have been taught a lower form of dzogchen because I am somehow inferior to you and your sky-high view. I believe that you are sincere but the fact of the matter is is that you really don't know what dzogchen is all about. You have read a few books and can parrot some quotes that suit your fancy. You can't get dzogchen from books. You can qoute Longchenpa all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that dzogchen is a living tradition that can only be communicated through transmition. Also, these teachings are not kept secret because they can make people go crazy. They are kept secret because people don't understand them, which you have demonstrated. You have yet to comment on Tsele Rangdrol's Longchenpa's statements about karma. And don't think that these are meant for stupid people like me, because Circle of the Sun is from the highest class of dzogchen out there.

Such foolish and arrogant people who do not know the various meanings of the Dharma say, "There is no karma and no effects of karma. In suchness there is nothing. It is like space," and they abandon virtuous deeds and indulge in evil deeds. Those are nihilists and not followers of the Dharma.

Longchenpa, Chapter 4 Shingta Chenpo
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby oushi » Tue May 07, 2013 8:12 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:TNH?

Thích Nhất Hạnh
CrawfordHollow wrote: I also don't appreciate your passive aggressive comment suggesting that I have been taught a lower form of dzogchen because I am somehow inferior to you and your sky-high view.

I wrote:"You can go through his "Rainbow Painting" (if I am not mistaken), from which you can deduce to which of those three groups did you teacher assign you.". There is not even one word about you being taught a lower form of Dzogchen. From the way you apply preconceived ideas, I can conclude that you are indeed not far on the path. Was it right view, or right speech you applied here? Or was it simply a lie, to make me look badly?

The perspective of eight causally oriented approaches involves cause and effect; thus, unconditioned reality is relegated to the background. They claim that the buddha is other then the present awareness. This is like saying that by purifying and transforming the sky there will be another clear sky that is other than this present sky. But in our way of looking at it, by saying that this present mind is the buddha itself, and by attending to its intrinsic clarity, incidental conceptualizations are clarified in the dimension of mind as-it-is, just as we clear up muddy water. Therefore this is the path of natural spontaneous perfection, the primordial yoga in which the three dimensions of being arise on their own. -Longchenpa.

Good luck on the path.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 07, 2013 8:19 pm

oushi wrote:Thích Nhất Hạnh
Thich Nhat Hanh says that there is no such thing as Right View as taught by the Buddha???

Please provide a source for this quote.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 07, 2013 8:25 pm

oushi wrote:The perspective of eight causally oriented approaches involves cause and effect; thus, unconditioned reality is relegated to the background. They claim that the buddha is other then the present awareness. This is like saying that by purifying and transforming the sky there will be another clear sky that is other than this present sky. But in our way of looking at it, by saying that this present mind is the buddha itself, and by attending to its intrinsic clarity, incidental conceptualizations are clarified in the dimension of mind as-it-is, just as we clear up muddy water. Therefore this is the path of natural spontaneous perfection, the primordial yoga in which the three dimensions of being arise on their own. -Longchenpa.
This, like the previous Longchenpa quote is referring to the uncaused nature of liberation, not to a lack of causality per se. It is talking about the path. According to the "eight causally oriented approaches" the path is the cause for enlightenment. Longchenpa disagrees with this, he does not disagree with causality per se.

It is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about. This is to be expected since Dzogchen requires the presence of a teacher whereas you are just reading a couple of books and jumping to ridiculous conclusions based on misinterpretation of texts that require transmission (and that is why, strangely enough, they require transmission or, at the very least, a a teacher to explain them to you).

Isn't it ironic that you should be posting your misinterpretations of the teachings in a thread entitled: "Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism".
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby oushi » Tue May 07, 2013 8:36 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
oushi wrote:Thích Nhất Hạnh
Thich Nhat Hanh says that there is no such thing as Right View as taught by the Buddha???

Please provide a source for this quote.

Here you go:
http://youtu.be/odWIPhj-ivo?t=5m37s
gregkavarnos wrote:It is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about.

I quoted, where do you see me "talking"? :jumping:
I am open for criticism, but please, quote me, not Lonchenpa.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby CrawfordHollow » Tue May 07, 2013 9:13 pm

Really Oushi?

This is how you have a discussion, by judging someone's ability as a practitioner? Sure, I am not far on the path, although I have been doing my best for twelve years, practicing and studying with as many teachers as I can. Thank you for you for your condescending remarks. That does not change the fact that you are wrong. The view of dzogchen does not change regardless of who it is being taught to. The methods, yes, but the view stays the same. Longchenpa has such a huge corpus of works, if you are really interested in learning about his views you should look into them rather than just referring to one (poorly in many people's opinion) translated work by Dowman. There is no place either in the seventeen dzogchen tantras or in the Nyingtik literature that says that karma is to be discarded and only taught to those of poor faculty. You still have yet to comment on the quotes that I have given, instead you chose to throw personal attacks my way and made yourself look bad in the process (with no help from me, thank you). The quote you provided is talking from the perspective of the ground, but there are always teachings on how beings become deluded from that ground. In fact, if there were no delusion, there would be no beings of the six realms.

Whatever is mind, that is the phenomena of samsara. When the faults, the mode of karma and traces, arise as stains and are associated with its intrinsic awareness, it is called a being. Through mind beings are deluded in six migrations of beings. When one's intrinsic awareness becomes free from mind, one is called Buddha, who has become detached from the adventitious defilements.

-Longchenpa, Tshig Don Rin-Po-Ch'e'i mDzod

So Longchenpa does not deny that there is delusion and karma. He clearly makes a distinction here between a sentient being and a Buddha. Its nice to just hear teachings on the primordial ground and how it is free from karma. But that really doesn't correspond to where we are now as sentient beings: deluded and under the sway of cause and effect. If you really think that dzogchen is just about a state being beyond all duality and karma then you are way off, because you are denying the reality of the situation. We are all in samsara.

You know, I really was trying to have a civil discussion here, just because I think that you are wrong about something doesn't mean you need to start throwing out personal attacks. None of us are perfect, you know.
Last edited by CrawfordHollow on Tue May 07, 2013 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 07, 2013 9:21 pm

He is not referring to samma ditthi in that video, he is talking about conceptual views. It is obvious he is not referring to samma ditthi because his statement is in regard to Nirvana, and in terms of Nirvana:
"And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view."

— DN 22
ie Right View is prerequisite for Nirvana. Right View is not a conceptual view, it is an outline of how to see reality, it is the basis ffor wisdom.

At 5'43" TNH says: "Nirvana is the capacity of removing wrong notions, wrong conceptions, which is the practice of freedom..."

It pays not tot take bits out of context, to maintain the entire context of the teaching and not use "bites" to fulfil your agenda.

Reading the comments to the video one sees clearly to what degree people can misinterpret a short teaching. Especially if they lack basic knowledge about the context of the teaching.
I quoted, where do you see me "talking"?
I am open for criticism, but please, quote me, not Lonchenpa.
I've already answered this question, twice.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby oushi » Wed May 08, 2013 6:46 am

CrawfordHollow wrote:So Longchenpa does not deny that there is delusion and karma. He clearly makes a distinction here between a sentient being and a Buddha. Its nice to just hear teachings on the primordial ground and how it is free from karma. But that really doesn't correspond to where we are now as sentient beings: deluded and under the sway of cause and effect. If you really think that dzogchen is just about a state being beyond all duality and karma then you are way off, because you are denying the reality of the situation. We are all in samsara.

You know, I really was trying to have a civil discussion here, just because I think that you are wrong about something doesn't mean you need to start throwing out personal attacks. None of us are perfect, you know.

Why are you fighting windmills? This is the third time you are imputing me something that I didn't write. DISCARD, NOT DENY! Do you get it? There is no point in denying anything.
To have civil discussion you need to learn to read with understanding.

gregkavarnos wrote:At 5'43" TNH says: "Nirvana is the capacity of removing wrong notions, wrong conceptions, which is the practice of freedom..."

It pays not tot take bits out of context, to maintain the entire context of the teaching and not use "bites" to fulfil your agenda.

You just took this bit out of context....
I will give you another one:

Wait, didn't he say that everything in Buddhism should be discarded?
:jawdrop:

And why is it like this? Why are you trying to make it all fit together with the Buddha words? Because you don't know that:

"Out of compassion, the truly and completely Awakened One, with his skillful knowledge, enunciated a myriad of lifestyles and approaches to the teachings. In these cases he taught according to the inclinations and abilities of those to be trained. What he taught to the majority of people had only indirect, provisional significance. He did not speak even once about the direct, real meaning." -Longchenpa.
:jawdrop:
You take provisional to refute the real meaning. Because you are not able to understand that, this conversation is over.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 08, 2013 8:05 am

oushi wrote:Wait, didn't he say that everything in Buddhism should be discarded?
:jawdrop:
Yes he did, but he also said: "When you are enlightened..."
"Out of compassion, the truly and completely Awakened One, with his skillful knowledge, enunciated a myriad of lifestyles and approaches to the teachings. In these cases he taught according to the inclinations and abilities of those to be trained. What he taught to the majority of people had only indirect, provisional significance. He did not speak even once about the direct, real meaning." -Longchenpa.
:jawdrop:
You obviously missed the large bit.
You take provisional to refute the real meaning. Because you are not able to understand that, this conversation is over.
No, the provisional refutes the provisional, you cannot refute the ultimate because it is beyond acceptance and rejection anyway. You can only realsie the ultimate or use provisional/relative terms to point to it. Right view is necessary as long as we are deluded, unless, of course, you are trying to tell me that you are enlightened?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby oushi » Wed May 08, 2013 8:30 am

gregkavarnos wrote: Right view is necessary as long as we are deluded, unless, of course, you are trying to tell me that you are enlightened?

"Nirvana is the capacity of removing wrong notions, wrong perceptions, which is the practice of freedom. Nirvana can be translated as freedom. Freedom from views, and in Buddhism, all views are wrong views. - TNH"
Now, when I try to remove a view by discarding it, you oppose. Maybe because you are attached to that view.
"In the ultimte definitive analysis
just as golden chains and hempen ropes are equally binding,
so the sacred and the profane do both enslave us. - Longchenpa"
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Simon E. » Wed May 08, 2013 8:44 am

Oushi, the most basic, entry level, requirement to be able to discuss Dzogchen is to have received a certain transmission from a Dzogchen teacher in a recognised lineage.
There are no ifs or buts or exceptions.

So, who is your teacher ?
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 08, 2013 8:46 am

Now, when I try to remove a view by discarding it, you oppose. Maybe because you are attached to that view.

Whereas you are not attached to your (concpetual) interpretation of Longchenpa and TNH?

Like I asked before: are you enlightened/realised?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby oushi » Wed May 08, 2013 9:00 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Whereas you are not attached to your (concpetual) interpretation of Longchenpa and TNH?

If I am, then we are both wrong. Where do we go from here? Toward removing views, or toward glorifying them?
gregkavarnos wrote:Like I asked before: are you enlightened/realised?

I do not hold such a view, as it is worthless, or even harmful.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 08, 2013 9:10 am

oushi wrote:Toward removing views, or toward glorifying them?
As long as you are not enlightened you will have views. Clinging to the view of "no-view" is a conceptual trap too. The only (immediate) way out of this trap is to receive pointing out instructions from a guru and then remain in the natural state beyond elaborations. Have you received pointing out instructions?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby oushi » Wed May 08, 2013 9:22 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Clinging to the view of "no-view" is a conceptual trap too.

Yes, it's just another view, but I wrote about removing views, not holding view of "no-view".
gregkavarnos wrote: The only (immediate) way out of this trap is to receive pointing out instructions from a guru and then remain in the natural state beyond elaborations.

No, but I will ask, did it work out for you? Are you in the natural state beyond elaborations?
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 08, 2013 10:12 am

No, but I will ask, did it work out for you?
Work out?
Are you in the natural state beyond elaborations?
I wish! It is because I am NOT constantly "in the natural state beyond elaborations" that I rely on Right View so as not to accumulate further obscurations.

Strange as it may seem (for a Buddhist) I figure: you can't go wrong relying on the Buddhadharma.

Weird thing that!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Simon E. » Wed May 08, 2013 10:22 am

We cannot simply internalise an idea ( and then deny that it is an idea ) of the Enlightened state by reading and then defend our understanding to our own satisfaction. By having endless answers that flow from an intellectual understanding of non-duality.
Or rather we can...but it avails nothing. And it is transparent to everyone that we are doing it.

When it happens on the pages of ZFI..everyone knows. When it happens on DW likewise.

I have met people who give every indication of dwelling in Rigpa..and the last thing they would do is engage in defending their position on a website.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby oushi » Wed May 08, 2013 10:39 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Work out?

Yes, work out - To prove successful, effective, or satisfactory.
gregkavarnos wrote:I wish! It is because I am NOT constantly "in the natural state beyond elaborations" that I rely on Right View so as not to accumulate further obscurations.

Where those instructions you received, not sufficient?

Simon E.,
I am not willing to discuss anything with a person that is only looking for a fight. Your scream for attention will be ignored. Take care.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Simon E. » Wed May 08, 2013 10:53 am

Oushi I do not dwell in Rigpa.
It is quite obvious that you dont either. :lol:
I am reminded of responding to another similar claimant on another website..when I ( perfectly politely ) said that his implied claims to non duality were not convincing..and he reported my posts to the mods..... :rolling: :rolling:
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 08, 2013 11:13 am

oushi wrote:Yes, work out - To prove successful, effective, or satisfactory.
According to whose criteria?
Where those instructions you received, not sufficient?
Sufficient for what?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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