Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Sherlock
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Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby Sherlock » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:03 am

On the Nyingma kama thread, Yudron mentioned that the claims that there were masters who practised Dzogchen without any deity are false. This is definitely true for probably all the masters we know anything about, i have heard however that Kumaradza apparently did practise "pure" Dzogchen without deity yoga and that was a reason Longchenpa went to him instead of the Third Karmapa to learn.

Anyway I am just mentioning what I heard I don't mean any conflict.

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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby Stewart » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:44 am

AFAIK Longchenpa definetly received Dzogchen teachings with and from Rangjung Dorje, including RD's Karma Nyingthig Terma, which is sometimes included with the Nyingthig Yabzhi...and Rangjung Dorje was also a student of Rigdzin Kumaradza....there's a teaching by Thrangu Rinpoche somewhere if you can find it.
s.

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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby Yudron » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:35 pm

Author of Buddhist young adult fiction. Vlogger at Wisdom and Compassion: Grandma Yudron's Totally Chill Vlog on Meditation and Tibetan Wisdom Blogger at Very active on Twitter.

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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby heart » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:32 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby muni » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:07 pm


Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:35 pm

Lemme just start by saying this is in no way some sort of passive aggressive dig at the OP or anyone else; this is just where I'm at these days. I'm just no longer interested in trying to condition people not to indulge in this idea and pursuit of "pure Dzogchen" practice. If they feel that works for them, then more power to em. I'll just keep doing my own thing, integrating all three inner tantras in the way I've been taught by my root lamas and which works for me, without being compelled to feel I'm "the one who's right" and they're "the ones who are wrong." Hopefully this perspective will eventually bleed into the rest of my opinions in life and I can stop being so concerned with being right in general.

But as I go on, the distinction between the three inner tantras just seems less and less concrete and real (from the perspective of integrating everything into the Dzogchen view). Sure, classifying them according to their unique features, approaches, and emphasis from their own side makes total sense from the point of view of exegesis... But eventually, from the experiential practice standpoint, it's my opinion that if we're diligent and end up hitting the mark in our Dzogchen practice, we'll all be practicing "pure Dzogchen" whether we're only doing guru yoga and the practices or Dzogchen proper or we're doing those and daily generation/completion stage sadhana, etc. too. This is, again, my opinion.

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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:55 am

^^^

Good post IMHO.

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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby Yudron » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:14 am

I was just chatting with a scholar who is very fluent in Tibetan about Garab Dorje. Garab Dorje authored two texts in the Tengyur. The first is a Manjushri Namasangiti commentary that is full on Dzogchen without using the word. Apparently it is really interesting.

He also wrote a sadhana called nod jyin gyi gyalpo drup pa'i thab -- which I guess I would translated as the Means of Accomplishment of the Yaksha King. It's in the Tengyur, too.

Vimalamitra apparently also wrote a commentary on the Manjushri Namasangiti-- that is not quite as Dzogchen flavored as the one by Garab Dorje, but in places uses a dzogchen approach replete with standard phrases from the Menagde, but again does not use the word Dzogchen.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have translations of these texts?
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Sherlock
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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby Sherlock » Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:14 pm


Dronma
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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby Dronma » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:20 pm

Thank you, Pema Rigdzin! :namaste:

Even the notion of "pure Dzogchen" is one more intellectual fabrication of the human mind, which implies and includes the existence of "non pure", hence more "Dzogchenistic dualism".
Even if we are talking about totally Enlightened Buddhas, Mahamudra or Dzogchen, essentially dualism has always the same bitter taste.
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~

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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby mutsuk » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:02 am


Yeti
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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby Yeti » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:40 pm

Just as an observation; I don't know if it means anything, but it made an impact on me; I noticed Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche's mala when I first meet him, then a year later, what seemed to be that same bodhiseed mala was much more worn than usual, leading me to reflect he wasn't just doing "pure" dzogchen practice, but a lot of recitations. (just my own observation and reflection... don't know if it has any meaning at all)
"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby Yudron » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:05 pm

My impression is, take it or leave it, that a lot of these great lineage holder enlightened beings practice Vajrasattva until the end of their lives. Dilgo Khyentse's namthar mentions his ongoing practice on Mindroling Vajrasattva, and I know other great lamas who continued VS practice to the end, although for some it might be one mala of the short mantra or 21 100 syllable mantras.

Vajrasattva has been with the Dzogchen lineages from the beginning.
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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby Yeti » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:32 pm

"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

Yeti
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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby Yeti » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:43 pm

HHDKRLaSonnerie.small.jpg
HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
HHDKRLaSonnerie.small.jpg (267.82 KiB) Viewed 2794 times
"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby Yudron » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:17 am

Just for the record... I want to be like that. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:35 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Yeti
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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby Yeti » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:43 am

"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:20 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Kumaradza and "pure" Dzogchen

Postby Dronma » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:26 pm

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~


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