Yidam and Dzogchen

[Sönam]

So when Arhats are awakened from their samadhi and they take rebirth they are reborn as sixth bhumi bodhisattvas.

Are you sure? That would imply their bodhicitta arises spontaneously at the time of birth.

Well no - I clearly need to get to shedra (or ask the lama's these questions). Bodhicitta arising spontaneously at birth certainly should be possible.

Kirt

Hi Kirt,

In my "firm conviction", Arhats have to realize emptiness again (emptiness is not "registered" in continuum and it is not a Bouddha's one) ... but it's much eased because of "great" merits accumulated before.

Sönam

[Kai]

I personally think a first Bhumi bodhisattva is at the level of the of a Hinayana Sakadagami in terms of what afflcitions have been abandoned by the realization of the emptiness of persons.

In classical Mahayana, first Bhumi Bodhisattva has destroyed emotional afflictions at the same level of the Nikaya Stream enterer. But for Vajrayana schools, if you reached the completion stage of luminous light (equivalent to the path of seeing), all your emotional obscurations will be destroyed, hence they are equated to Arhats in terms of passionless. Not sure about Dzogchen but should be similar to Anuttarayoga in this aspect.

[deepbluehum]

I know that that is the story, but I can't says that the history. The two don't always coincide.

1000 years is history, more depend on your faith.

/magnus

7-800 at most.

[heart]

I know that that is the story, but I can't says that the history. The two don't always coincide.

1000 years is history, more depend on your faith.

/magnus

7-800 at most.

And your point is?

/magnus

[booker]

Dzogchen is Vajrayana. It is not some new idea, it is as old as the Dzogchen Tantras.

Weird, I though the very basic thing is Dzogchen is path of self-liberation, whereas Vajrayana is path of transformation. Hence they can't be equated.

Also, I thought the Dzogchen texts are called tantras but this isn't automatically making Dzogchen path of transformation, since it's a path of self-liberation. No?


Hmmm

[Sönam]

Dzogchen is Vajrayana. It is not some new idea, it is as old as the Dzogchen Tantras.

Weird, I though the very basic thing is Dzogchen is path of self-liberation, whereas Vajrayana is path of transformation. Hence they can't be equated.

Also, I thought the Dzogchen texts are called tantras but this isn't automatically making Dzogchen path of transformation, since it's a path of self-liberation. No?


Hmmm

it is said (forget but can be ChNN) that Dzogchen Tantra are called tantras, but is not the same than Vajrayana Tantra ... heart knows that Dzogchen is not (necessarely) Vajrayana

Sönam

[heart]

Dzogchen is Vajrayana. It is not some new idea, it is as old as the Dzogchen Tantras.

Weird, I though the very basic thing is Dzogchen is path of self-liberation, whereas Vajrayana is path of transformation. Hence they can't be equated.

Also, I thought the Dzogchen texts are called tantras but this isn't automatically making Dzogchen path of transformation, since it's a path of self-liberation. No?


Hmmm

it is said (forget but can be ChNN) that Dzogchen Tantra are called tantras, but is not the same than Vajrayana Tantra ... heart knows that Dzogchen is not (necessarely) Vajrayana

Sönam

No, Dzogchen is Vajrayana, always been Vajrayana.

/magnus

[booker]

No, Dzogchen is Vajrayana, always been Vajrayana.

Weird....

(...) Dzogchen is based on a class of literature called the tantras, this indicates why Dzogchen is considered a tantric system as opposed to sutra systems such as Zen. This is not to say that Dzogchen is a part of general Vajrayana. Vajrayana is a path of transformation. Dzogchen, an independent vehicle in its own right, is a path of self-liberation.

/edit/ Actually scrap what I quoted above. I had a look in the book and this statement is not there (as quoted, esp. about an independent vehicle in its own right). I copied the above from Wikipedia. Perchaps someone should get this corrected. heh. That way or another in the same book it's clearly explained, Vajrayana goes from point of transforming impure vision into pure vision, whereas Dzogchen is about remaining in a state of contemplation.

[heart]

No, Dzogchen is Vajrayana, always been Vajrayana.

Weird....

(...) Dzogchen is based on a class of literature called the tantras, this indicates why Dzogchen is considered a tantric system as opposed to sutra systems such as Zen. This is not to say that Dzogchen is a part of general Vajrayana. Vajrayana is a path of transformation. Dzogchen, an independent vehicle in its own right, is a path of self-liberation.

I am just repeating what my teachers told me, not really arguing with ChNNR. Every Nyingma teaching I seen on Vajrayana will mention the outer and inner Tantras as Vajrayana. Ati yoga or Dzogchen always being the top of nine yanas or the six levels of Tantras.

/magnus

[booker]

Sorry and again the quote I've put was copied from Wikipedia. There are so such statements in the book they refer to. *sigh*

However then, how is it explained in Nyingma about Ati Yoga falling into Vajrayana since obviously there's no transformation in Ati Yoga? Just asking.

[heart]

Sorry and again the quote I've put was copied from Wikipedia. There are so such statements in the book they refer to. *sigh*

However then, how is it explained in Nyingma about Ati Yoga falling into Vajrayana since obviously there's no transformation in Ati Yoga? Just asking.

It is not falling into anything. Vajrayana includes Dzogchen and so the path of self-liberation is a part of Vajrayana. Vajrayana have an amazing numbers of teachings and methods. Even ChNNR teach a combination of Anu-yoga and Ati-yoga and other Nyingma teachers teach any other number of combinations. A teaching such as for example Lama Gongdu contain a complete teachings of the three inner Tantras.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Nine_yanas

/magnus

[alwayson]

Yeah but Namdrol doesn't think Dzogchen Upadesha / Mennagade is part of "regular" Vajrayana and disagrees with the standard nine yanas classification of the Nyingmas.


Dzogchen Upadesha is an independent Buddhist vehicle.

[Sönam]

Sorry and again the quote I've put was copied from Wikipedia. There are so such statements in the book they refer to. *sigh*

However then, how is it explained in Nyingma about Ati Yoga falling into Vajrayana since obviously there's no transformation in Ati Yoga? Just asking.

and as Namdrol already explained it, there is two approach, one witin the yanas and one direct. And as Mengagdé (Inner most secret) does not rely on words, how could it part of Vajrayana, and how it could rely on tantras?

Sönam

[heart]

Namdrol doesn't think Dzogchen Upadesha / Mennagade is part of "regular" Vajrayana and disagrees with the standard nine yanas classification of the Nyingmas.


Dzogchen Upadesha is an independent Buddhist vehicle.

With all respect to Namdrol I will side with the mainstream Nyingmas in this matter. You are of course free to believe whatever you want.

/magnus

[alwayson]

/edit/ Actually scrap what I quoted above. I had a look in the book and this statement is not there (as quoted, esp. about an independent vehicle in its own right). I copied the above from Wikipedia. Perchaps someone should get this corrected. heh. That way or another in the same book it's clearly explained, Vajrayana goes from point of transforming impure vision into pure vision, whereas Dzogchen is about remaining in a state of contemplation.

You are right, everyone else is wrong.

[alwayson]

Namdrol doesn't think Dzogchen Upadesha / Mennagade is part of "regular" Vajrayana and disagrees with the standard nine yanas classification of the Nyingmas.


Dzogchen Upadesha is an independent Buddhist vehicle.

With all respect to Namdrol I will side with the mainstream Nyingmas in this matter. You are of course free to believe whatever you want.

/magnus

feel free to disagree with Norbu

[alwayson]

it is said (forget but can be ChNN) that Dzogchen Tantra are called tantras, but is not the same than Vajrayana Tantra ... heart knows that Dzogchen is not (necessarely) Vajrayana

Sönam

Exactly Sonam.

I am not a Dzogchen practitioner but I trust Norbu and Namdrol more than "heart".

[heart]

Sorry and again the quote I've put was copied from Wikipedia. There are so such statements in the book they refer to. *sigh*

However then, how is it explained in Nyingma about Ati Yoga falling into Vajrayana since obviously there's no transformation in Ati Yoga? Just asking.

and as Namdrol already explained it, there is two approach, one witin the yanas and one direct. And as Mengagdé (Inner most secret) does not rely on words, how could it part of Vajrayana, and how it could rely on tantras?

Sönam

The 17 Tantras are not Tantras?

/magnus

[deepbluehum]

Namdrol doesn't think Dzogchen Upadesha / Mennagade is part of "regular" Vajrayana and disagrees with the standard nine yanas classification of the Nyingmas.


Dzogchen Upadesha is an independent Buddhist vehicle.

With all respect to Namdrol I will side with the mainstream Nyingmas in this matter. You are of course free to believe whatever you want.

/magnus

feel free to disagree with Norbu

Many do. So what?

[alwayson]

Many do. So what?

Thats fine, but he is not even allowing for another equally valid viewpoint.

Thats the fcucking problem.

Dzogchen can EITHER be part of the nine yanas, OR Upadesha can be considered totally fcucking independent.