Yidam and Dzogchen

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:33 am

Nangwa wrote:
Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:The Kunjed Gyalpo is pointing-out of the view of Ati for practitioners that have already practiced in the other 8 yanas. That is obvious all through the text. It is not at text that explains that it is unnecessary to practice the lower 8 yanas, denigrating the Buddhas teaching. To believe that is to gravely misunderstand the text.

/magnus

nevertheless there is no direct connection between Mahayoga and Dzogpa Chenpo.


Sönam

I think that to say there is no connection between Mahayoga and Dzogpa Chenpo goes too far.
You might be able to say that one can practice Dzogchen independent from Mahayoga or that one can practice Mahayoga independent from Dzogchen, but to say there is no connection is an over-statement.


True connections exist with all yana ... even hinayana

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:03 am

Sönam wrote: ... nevertheless there is no direct connection between Mahayoga and Dzogpa Chenpo.


Well, Rongzom Pandita, Longchenpa and Mipham Rinpoche all disagree with you. These teachers all wrote commentaries on the Guhyagarbha Tantra with a Dzogchen perspective. Mipham Rinpoches commentary in English can be found here. Guhyagarbha Tantra is also the oldest know text that mention Dzogchen.

http://earlytibet.com/2008/01/24/early-dzogchen-iii/

"Thus the Great Joyous One settled into the contemplation of the cloud-array that is at the heart of the extremely secret commitment–that all phenomena are, from the beginning, spontaneously present in the great perfection (rdzogs chen)."

Guhyagarbha Tantra

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby muni » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:06 am

Sönam "True connections exist with all yana ... even hinayana"

_/\_
Lucky there is no Hinayana, Mahayana and Vajrayana door in "nature", as I take always the wrong door.

The effortlessness; not easy at all when thoughts and concepts aren't naturally pure and free. Easy to dive in deluded state.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:19 pm

References could be found to justify what one needs to justify, interpretation makes the rest.
Nevertheless, how could it effortlessnessely necessitates an effort from the mind to be able to generate deities ? would consciousness be more pur with it, or less pur without it ?

"if you try to achieve me through effort, you will alter me. You cannot reach me by treading a path. You do not find me by seeking. You do not purify me through training yourself. - Kunjed Gyalpo -

"The vajra-essence, Ati is:
The utmost summit of the yanas, and it realizes all the meanings clearly,
And the lower yanas do not realize the meaning of this yana
Therefore, this is the pinnacle, the spontaneously accomplished summit."
- Longchen Rabjam - Ch'os-dByings Rin-Po-Ch'e'i mDzod

"The different yanas are discoursed on for the benefit of beings of different intellectual capacities and to suit their abilities."
- Longchen Rabjam - Ch'os-dByings Rin-Po-Ch'e'i mDzod

"... Mahayoga proposes the development of primordial wisdom by recommending the development stage and the channels, energy and essence of the perfection stage. ... In brief, all these levels up to Anuyoga are mere theories perceived by the mind. In the mental attitude of all of them is the claim that the object and subject are the ultimate nature, arrived at by thoughts, mental creation and analysis, thinking "this is non-existent", "it is emptiness" and "it is truth". So they do not realize the ultimate nature as it is. ... The view of these Yanas are cerated and modified by the mind, the mind of eight consciousnesses, which are the defilements to be abandoned."
- Gyurmed Tshewng Chogdrub -

Any way this discussion goes no where ... so let's end it her !
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby muni » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:36 pm

The deity and Guru Yoga are special preliminaries.

Master introduces, then whether Rigpa (no efforts) or not (efforts). Dzogchen is result. (no cause)

Prayers for Tibet.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:38 pm

Sönam wrote:Any way this discussion goes no where ... so let's end it her !
Sönam


Ah, come on Sönam. You think Longchenpa thought that practicing yidam would impede his Dzogchen practice? That it would destroy his view?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:57 am

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:Any way this discussion goes no where ... so let's end it her !
Sönam


Ah, come on Sönam. You think Longchenpa thought that practicing yidam would impede his Dzogchen practice? That it would destroy his view?

/magnus


What I thinks is not important ...

love
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:39 am

Sönam wrote:
What I think is not important ...

love
Sönam


Dear Sönam,

What we are discussing here is our understanding of teachings that we received or read so what you think is the only thing that matters actually. My point in this discussion isn't that you have to practice a Yidam only that every single teacher of Dzogchen have done it and keeps doing it even a relatively unusual teachers such as Namkhai Norbu, that actually teach Dzogchen as a stand-alone path, is finding termas belonging to the "lower" yanas (his Mandarava terma for example).

You still have to produce a single teacher that actually discarded the "lower" 8 yanas after starting to practice Dzogchen. Also you have to explain why the 17 Tantras of Dzogchen Mengakde contains so much "Tantric" material.

The OP wanted know if you have to practice Yidam if you want to practice Dzogchen. The answer is of course, as several people noted, that it is impossible to practice Dzogchen without a teacher and that one should ask ones teacher about the particular path you should take. A little more general one could, like I did, also mention that since the main Dzogchen traditions that are available belong to the Nyingthik tradition. They contain a far amount of Ngondro and Keyrim and Dzogrim instructions both as preliminaries to Dzogchen instructions of Trechö and Tögal (and other instructions) as well as main practice.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:04 pm

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:
What I think is not important ...

love
Sönam


Dear Sönam,

What we are discussing here is our understanding of teachings that we received or read so what you think is the only thing that matters actually. My point in this discussion isn't that you have to practice a Yidam only that every single teacher of Dzogchen have done it and keeps doing it even a relatively unusual teachers such as Namkhai Norbu, that actually teach Dzogchen as a stand-alone path, is finding termas belonging to the "lower" yanas (his Mandarava terma for example).

You still have to produce a single teacher that actually discarded the "lower" 8 yanas after starting to practice Dzogchen. Also you have to explain why the 17 Tantras of Dzogchen Mengakde contains so much "Tantric" material.

The OP wanted know if you have to practice Yidam if you want to practice Dzogchen. The answer is of course, as several people noted, that it is impossible to practice Dzogchen without a teacher and that one should ask ones teacher about the particular path you should take. A little more general one could, like I did, also mention that since the main Dzogchen traditions that are available belong to the Nyingthik tradition. They contain a far amount of Ngondro and Keyrim and Dzogrim instructions both as preliminaries to Dzogchen instructions of Trechö and Tögal (and other instructions) as well as main practice.

/magnus


Still what I thinks is not important ...

If Namkhai Norbu teaches lower yana it's because of the capacities of those who attends his teachings ... and he clearly told it so during one of his teaching, that I had the chance to listen.
I gave you many quotes of Kunjed Gyalpo, and Longchen Rabjam, and others that repeat it, and repeat it ... may be they say so for no reason ?
The cursus of most of those masters is a monastic cursus, therefore they follow a LamRim ... then have been instructed in Dzogchen.
Preliminaries are preliminaries ... as for Dzogchen, it is clearly said (in the Khadro Nyingt'hig teachings) that "In order to realize Dzogpa Chenpo, must of us need to develop through gradual stages of training. This is why the lower yanas are essential stepping stones for the higher ones ..."
Again the citation of a Dzogchenpa may elnlight our understanding, the Third Dodrupchen explains : "Use intrinsic awareness as the way. Maintain only that awareness. Do not employ any concepts, since concepts are mind. Meditate having distinguished between mind and intrinsic awareness".

But honestly, I do not see any reason to continue this discussion, because what ever quotation I can provide, you always come back with your own view, pretending that there could be a cause to Dzogpa Chenpo, and that it would be Mahayoga. I do not say that Mahayoga, is not usefull in the management of the body energies, and that is of course usefull to stabilize rigpa ... but this is not a necessity, because once in rigpa, "energy balance" is set on automatically.

I will end, once more, this time with a quotation of the Gnas lugs mdzod ...
"For the categories of Mind, Expanse, and Direct Transmission,
the consummate meaning of the heart essence
is that of ineffability, openness, spontaneous presence, and oneness"

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Sönam
 
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:15 pm

Sönam wrote:Preliminaries are preliminaries ... as for Dzogchen, it is clearly said (in the Khadro Nyingt'hig teachings) that "In order to realize Dzogpa Chenpo, must of us need to develop through gradual stages of training. This is why the lower yanas are essential stepping stones for the higher ones ..."


Sönam you are such gradualist. :smile: Well, never mind, it's not that important to me.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:48 pm

Jigme Lingpas retreat schedule (from Yeshe Lama)

Early morning session:

Guru yoga
Trechö
Tsalung
Various sadhana's and prayers

Morning session:

Tögal

Afternoon session:

Prostrations, Tsog and other virtious activities

Evening session:

Tögal, torma offerings
Meditate on impermanence
Development stage and mantra recitation
Dream yoga

All sessions should be preceded by generating bodhicitta, main part should be embraced by the view and every session finished by sharing the merit.

In fact Jigme Lingpa do the practices of the four empowerment during a day, or rather the 9 Yanas are all summed up in his daily schedule. This is very much the way my teachers teach.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:37 am

Dudjom Rinpoche, Commentary on the Three Statements of Garab Dorje ...

This is the pur Dzogchen Atiyoga. A Dzogchen Master STARTS with "direct introduction" with everyone. If they don't "get it" then one starts to use all the infinite methods and means to help bring about the experience of Rigpa. When one has the experience of Rigpa, then one confirms the validity of one's path now being "remaining with Rigpa" as path. Then, one simply continues in that state. Rigpa is the view to be experienced, Rigpa is the path to be followed, and Rigpa is the fruit of the path. There is no change in Rigpa, either in the beginning, middle or end.
The fruit is your first realization of Rigpa. There are no Stages of Rigpa. Thogel does not modify Rigpa.


1. ngo rang thog-tu sprad-pa
2. thag gcig thog-tu bcad-pa
3. gdeng grol thog-tu bca'-ba

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Sönam
 
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:52 am

heart wrote:Jigme Lingpas retreat schedule (from Yeshe Lama)

Early morning session:

Guru yoga
Trechö
Tsalung
Various sadhana's and prayers

Morning session:

Tögal

Afternoon session:

Prostrations, Tsog and other virtious activities

Evening session:

Tögal, torma offerings
Meditate on impermanence
Development stage and mantra recitation
Dream yoga

All sessions should be preceded by generating bodhicitta, main part should be embraced by the view and every session finished by sharing the merit.

In fact Jigme Lingpa do the practices of the four empowerment during a day, or rather the 9 Yanas are all summed up in his daily schedule. This is very much the way my teachers teach.

/magnus


It's clear that only with Rigpa as the View, the Path and the fruit, it becomes difficult to engage disciples in retreat ... how then all those Rinpoche would survive ?

Ah!Ah!Ah!Ah!
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Sönam
 
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:31 pm

I don't think one should stick to one extreme or the other. It is common that most of the people don't get much of initiations and pointing out instructions, otherwise we'd all be vajramasters already. Thus practice is necessary, and not just one form of it but many. It shouldn't be forgot either that introduction to the nature of mind happens at the 4 HYT initiations too. Dzogchen in its raw and simple form - as in the three statements of Prahevajra - is for those with the highest capacity. Others can use whatever else Buddhism offers to them as a means to enlightenment. Naturally the majority doesn't belong to the best of the best. Even Milarepa couldn't realise Dzogchen at first.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby muni » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:26 pm

Sönam is talking about direct introduction of Dzogchen.

State of mind in wisdom is a simple state and humble in appearance. The sky isn't proud, possesses nothing.

Along preliminaries: After the general preliminaries, the empowerments, there are the special supreme preliminaries: pure perception of Yidam and Guru Yoga.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:51 pm

Sönam wrote:
It's clear that only with Rigpa as the View, the Path and the fruit, it becomes difficult to engage disciples in retreat ... how then all those Rinpoche would survive ?

Ah!Ah!Ah!Ah!
Sönam


I think you can do better than that Sönam, are you suggesting that Rinpoches teach the lower Yanas to make money?

The way Jigme Lingpa explains it is the way it is done, the way it been done for a very long time. His suggestion does not stop you from resting in the natural state 24 hours a day it is your delusional mind that stops that. Imagining Dzogchen as a kind of hidden Zen just isn't right.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:34 pm

muni wrote:Sönam is talking about direct introduction of Dzogchen.

State of mind in wisdom is a simple state and humble in appearance. The sky isn't proud, possesses nothing.

Along preliminaries: After the general preliminaries, the empowerments, there are the special supreme preliminaries: pure perception of Yidam and Guru Yoga.


Dear muni,

I do practice Dzogchen myself for maybe 15 years (since recieving the direct introduction) and I can assure you that until you reached a continuous stability in the natural state (rigpa) you will be practicing Ngondro, Yidam, Tsog, Sang and many other practices as well as Trechö and Tögal. Which ones you practice and in what order depend on yourself and your Guru. But in general I think you can consider Jigme Lingpas schedule above a very nice example.
This fantasy that if you do a little Ngondro and Yidam then you will practice "pure" Dzogchen forever is just not very realistic on so many levels.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:57 pm

Astus wrote:I don't think one should stick to one extreme or the other. It is common that most of the people don't get much of initiations and pointing out instructions, otherwise we'd all be vajramasters already. Thus practice is necessary, and not just one form of it but many. It shouldn't be forgot either that introduction to the nature of mind happens at the 4 HYT initiations too. Dzogchen in its raw and simple form - as in the three statements of Prahevajra - is for those with the highest capacity. Others can use whatever else Buddhism offers to them as a means to enlightenment. Naturally the majority doesn't belong to the best of the best. Even Milarepa couldn't realise Dzogchen at first.


Trechö is mainly view and as view it applicable on all levels of practice. Rigpa has no problem with yidams or prostrations or any other practice. In fact they are all designed to help you gain stability in the view. Some fit you better than others, what you do is between you and your Guru.

My Guru have been continuously given me and all his students these "raw and simple" Dzogchen teachings for 15 years now and he certainly don't expect you to stop accumulating merit and wisdom, do purification and to aspire to true bodhicitta as well as to act and help sentient beings all around me. He do expect me to apply Garab Dorjes splendid teaching on the three statements while engaging in all this activity. Not only while doing my Yidam, or just resting in the natural state but also all through my day and the endless activities our lives. How are we else capable of attaining enlightenment?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby muni » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:13 pm

heart wrote:
muni wrote:Sönam is talking about direct introduction of Dzogchen.

State of mind in wisdom is a simple state and humble in appearance. The sky isn't proud, possesses nothing.

Along preliminaries: After the general preliminaries, the empowerments, there are the special supreme preliminaries: pure perception of Yidam and Guru Yoga.


Dear muni,

I do practice Dzogchen myself for maybe 15 years (since recieving the direct introduction) and I can assure you that until you reached a continuous stability in the natural state (rigpa) you will be practicing Ngondro, Yidam, Tsog, Sang and many other practices as well as Trechö and Tögal. Which ones you practice and in what order depend on yourself and your Guru. But in general I think you can consider Jigme Lingpas schedule above a very nice example.
This fantasy that if you do a little Ngondro and Yidam then you will practice "pure" Dzogchen forever is just not very realistic on so many levels.

/magnus

Ngondro is perfect, isn't harming and "pure Dzogchen" is simple concept. But Dzogchen introduction can without ngondro. What we meet should be appreciated. What others meet, is our rejoice.

To elaborate or to examine is nothing but adding concepts. To make effort or to cultivate is exhausting our being. To focus here, is a trap of further entanglement.
May these dissatisfying fabrications be cut from within. Like this Lama Mipham said.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:19 pm

Am I mistaken in saying that realising rigpa is seeing the buddha-nature? If I'm correct, I can only wonder what else is there to attain beyond buddhahood.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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