Yidam and Dzogchen

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Paul » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:37 pm

Sönam wrote:Dzogchen is the path and the fruit at the same time.


Personally, I agree with this.

From the 13th Karmapa:
[A]s far as the meditation of Mahamudra is concerned,
It is not asserted as being something different from the view.



Therefore Dzogchen is Rigpa and is without any other needs ... other is Ma-Rigpa and needs ngöndro and deities practices.

ANd I do not agree with the relation you made between the Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra and mahayoga.

Kunjed Gyalpo is from the Semde Division, and as Gyurmed Tshewang Chogtrub explains it clearly :
"The theory of Semde transcends all the various levels of yanas, two truths, six perfections and two stages, all the composed and contamined aspects of the 'truth of path' which are bound with the rigid concept of apprehending ..."

Sönam


This seems to be in accord with what Rongzompa writes:

In reality Mahayoga and the other lower vehicles maintain that the fundamental path for realising the fruit comprises[the primary and secondary causes of] the four approaches and attainments*. But in Dzogpa Chenpo this is not necessary and the four approaches and attainments too, being perfected effortlessly in the yoga of self-perfection, are not considered something concrete tied to primary and secondary causes and a fruit. This can be understood through the upadeshas that take one directl beyond [into the state of self-perfection].

*The four branches of approach and attainment (bsnyen sgrub yan lag bzhi) may include diverse aspects of tantric practice according to the specific context. At the common level these concern the various phases of the sadhana of a yidam, starting from transformation of oneself into the deity together with the recitation of the mantra until complete realisation.


(this is a comment on this by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche on the above)
Image

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:13 am

Sönam wrote:Hello magnus,

It's not my own opinion, as I comment it, you can found all those references in the "Practice of Dzogchen" by Longchen Rabjam.

But my opinion is that it seems quite evident ...

Dzogchen is the path and the fruit at the same time.
The nature of the Basis is, primordially pure essence (Ngo-Bo), Spontaneously accomplished nature (Rang bZhin), and omnipresent compassion (Thugs-rJe). Compassion arises from the basis with the "eight modes of arising of spontaneous accomplishments" (Lhun-Grub Kyi 'Ch'ar-Tshul brGyad) ... if one realize them, when they arise, to be self-appearances, it is Dzogchen.
If one sees them as other than self-appearances then it becomes Ma-Rig-Pa ... therefore one start practicing ngöndro, and so on.

Therefore Dzogchen is Rigpa and is without any other needs ... other is Ma-Rigpa and needs ngöndro and deities practices.

ANd I do not agree with the relation you made between the Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra and mahayoga.

Kunjed Gyalpo is from the Semde Division, and as Gyurmed Tshewang Chogtrub explains it clearly :
"The theory of Semde transcends all the various levels of yanas, two truths, six perfections and two stages, all the composed and contamined aspects of the 'truth of path' which are bound with the rigid concept of apprehending ..."

Sönam


Hi Sönam,

I didn't disagree with the Kunjed Gyalpo, only your interpretation of it. The Kunjed Gyalpo is full of Mahayoga references so it is evident that the reader have to understand those in order to understand what is being rejected.
My point was that since the Instruction section (the 17 Tantras) contain a lot of yidam and other stuff and since the Instruction section supersedes the Mind section (Semde) you are in a fix. Or are you suggesting that the Mind section supersedes everything?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:21 am

Sönam wrote:
Therefore Dzogchen is Rigpa and is without any other needs ... other is Ma-Rigpa and needs ngöndro and deities practices.


Of course Rigpa is without any other needs. But interpreting that to mean that methods like yidam and guru yoga is unnecessary for a person without stability in the natural state is a bit strange.

/magnus
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:46 am

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Therefore Dzogchen is Rigpa and is without any other needs ... other is Ma-Rigpa and needs ngöndro and deities practices.


Of course Rigpa is without any other needs. But interpreting that to mean that methods like yidam and guru yoga is unnecessary for a person without stability in the natural state is a bit strange.

/magnus


I did'nt say it's unnecessary for a person without stability ... my point is one often call Dzogchen what is not Dzogchen, and one globalize all practices as beeing Dzogchen.
Dzogchen is recognition, certitude of it, and stabilization ... nothing else ! the rest is not Dzogchen (rigpa), it's ma-rigpa, meaning all others yana and their skillfull practices being valid.
It's just the point that Dzogchen is not to be learned, not to be teached, not to be practiced, therefore could not be 2 stages and others ...
Few peoples are Dzogchenpa ...

"Homage to the Glorious Kuntu Zangpo
From the utterly pure essence which transcends objective thought
Arisen as the glow of the essence of the spontaneously accomplished nature
Pure from various characteristics of the duality of apprehended and apprehender, the Mind
Which is free from discriminations of dimensions and partiality : to you I pay homage.
Phenomenal existences are unborn, of equal nature;
In which the originally liberated appearances and mind prevail evenly without apprehensions;
Concerning that marvelous sovereign, Naturally Liberated Mind,
Listen while I tell you what I have realized.
..."
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:06 am

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:Hello magnus,

It's not my own opinion, as I comment it, you can found all those references in the "Practice of Dzogchen" by Longchen Rabjam.

But my opinion is that it seems quite evident ...

Dzogchen is the path and the fruit at the same time.
The nature of the Basis is, primordially pure essence (Ngo-Bo), Spontaneously accomplished nature (Rang bZhin), and omnipresent compassion (Thugs-rJe). Compassion arises from the basis with the "eight modes of arising of spontaneous accomplishments" (Lhun-Grub Kyi 'Ch'ar-Tshul brGyad) ... if one realize them, when they arise, to be self-appearances, it is Dzogchen.
If one sees them as other than self-appearances then it becomes Ma-Rig-Pa ... therefore one start practicing ngöndro, and so on.

Therefore Dzogchen is Rigpa and is without any other needs ... other is Ma-Rigpa and needs ngöndro and deities practices.

ANd I do not agree with the relation you made between the Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra and mahayoga.

Kunjed Gyalpo is from the Semde Division, and as Gyurmed Tshewang Chogtrub explains it clearly :
"The theory of Semde transcends all the various levels of yanas, two truths, six perfections and two stages, all the composed and contamined aspects of the 'truth of path' which are bound with the rigid concept of apprehending ..."

Sönam


Hi Sönam,

I didn't disagree with the Kunjed Gyalpo, only your interpretation of it. The Kunjed Gyalpo is full of Mahayoga references so it is evident that the reader have to understand those in order to understand what is being rejected.
My point was that since the Instruction section (the 17 Tantras) contain a lot of yidam and other stuff and since the Instruction section supersedes the Mind section (Semde) you are in a fix. Or are you suggesting that the Mind section supersedes everything?

/magnus


Mengagde supersedes Semde because there is no analysis ... I agree. With one point that in the meaning they are indivisible.
Quoting Jigmed Lingpa : "... as the glow (gDangs) of originally pure essence (Ngo-Bo), the great freedom from concepts and expressions, arises naturally through the doors of spontaneously accomplished self-appearances, there are no deviations and obscurations in the appearances of power (rTsal-sNang); and the appearances of phenomena are perfected in the ultimate nature of phenomena, free from elaborations. So it is superior."

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:09 pm

Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Therefore Dzogchen is Rigpa and is without any other needs ... other is Ma-Rigpa and needs ngöndro and deities practices.


Of course Rigpa is without any other needs. But interpreting that to mean that methods like yidam and guru yoga is unnecessary for a person without stability in the natural state is a bit strange.

/magnus


I did'nt say it's unnecessary for a person without stability ... my point is one often call Dzogchen what is not Dzogchen, and one globalize all practices as beeing Dzogchen.
Dzogchen is recognition, certitude of it, and stabilization ... nothing else ! the rest is not Dzogchen (rigpa), it's ma-rigpa, meaning all others yana and their skillfull practices being valid.
It's just the point that Dzogchen is not to be learned, not to be teached, not to be practiced, therefore could not be 2 stages and others ...
Few peoples are Dzogchenpa ...


Not really true, the complete display of sambhogakaya appears naturally from the dharmakaya. So the yidams, that are the dispalys of the samboghakaya, they don't come from marigpa, they come from rigpa. For this reason there are yidam practice and guru-yoga and so on in the Instruction section Tantras.

/magnus
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:23 pm

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:
Of course Rigpa is without any other needs. But interpreting that to mean that methods like yidam and guru yoga is unnecessary for a person without stability in the natural state is a bit strange.

/magnus


I did'nt say it's unnecessary for a person without stability ... my point is one often call Dzogchen what is not Dzogchen, and one globalize all practices as beeing Dzogchen.
Dzogchen is recognition, certitude of it, and stabilization ... nothing else ! the rest is not Dzogchen (rigpa), it's ma-rigpa, meaning all others yana and their skillfull practices being valid.
It's just the point that Dzogchen is not to be learned, not to be teached, not to be practiced, therefore could not be 2 stages and others ...
Few peoples are Dzogchenpa ...


Not really true, the complete display of sambhogakaya appears naturally from the dharmakaya. So the yidams, that are the dispalys of the samboghakaya, they don't come from marigpa, they come from rigpa. For this reason there are yidam practice and guru-yoga and so on in the Instruction section Tantras.

/magnus


You're right, they come from rigpa, but rigpa obtained in equipoise, meditation, not stabilized ... therefore not actually Dzogchen.

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:26 pm

Sönam wrote:
You're right, they come from rigpa, but rigpa obtained in equipoise, meditation, not stabilized ... therefore not actually Dzogchen.

Sönam


Actually, that depends on the person. Rigpa has no problem with Yidams.

/magnus
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:24 pm

heart wrote:
...
Rigpa has no problem with Yidams.

/magnus


That's for sure ... lol

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Josef » Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:39 pm

[/quote]

You're right, they come from rigpa, but rigpa obtained in equipoise, meditation, not stabilized ... therefore not actually Dzogchen.

Sönam[/quote]
Nothing "comes from Rigpa". That statement indicates a division. There is most certainly no division.
This might just be wording but I think its an important point. When we are talking about manifestations etc. its not a division its an aspect of the same "truth" for lack of a better term. Its like katak and lhundrup. Katak and lhundrup are not two different things but rather the same simultaneous nature. Yidam is Dzogchen and Dzogchen is Yidam.
No divisions, no limitations, and no analysis.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:24 pm

Admittedly I practice within the Sakya tradition, not Dzogchen. But nevertheless Nangwa has very consistently made sense to me, and the remarks always seem to match my humble understandings thus far. I don't know if this has to do with the teachings or the manner in which Nangwa discusses these matters. In either case, I really enjoy reading these discussions among fellow practitioners regardless of differences in points of view. It's always interesting.

Best,
Laura :)
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Josef » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:19 pm

Ngawang Drolma wrote:Admittedly I practice within the Sakya tradition, not Dzogchen. But nevertheless Nangwa has very consistently made sense to me, and the remarks always seem to match my humble understandings thus far. I don't know if this has to do with the teachings or the manner in which Nangwa discusses these matters. In either case, I really enjoy reading these discussions among fellow practitioners regardless of differences in points of view. It's always interesting.

Best,
Laura :)

Thanks Laura. I think its the Dzogchen teachings. There is a lot made of their profundity but there is also a remarkable simplicity.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:36 am

It is not that I want to re-open the thread, but as I found a very direct answer to our discussion (with Heart) ... so I deliver

"Even though the single fundamental nature is pure and total consciousness, followers of mahayoga apply the three contemplations and the five rituals in order to fulfil the four 'approaches and accomplishments and to transform the vajra body, which is alread naturally pure, into the form of the deity and to realize its simultaneous appearance and insubstantiality'. Through commitment and effort they try to transform their mind into the deity and in consequence they do not see the true nature of mind, which is beyond action.

- Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra - The Chapter that demonstrates that all is contained inthe Body, Voice, and Mind

:meditate:
Sönam
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:57 am

Sönam wrote:It is not that I want to re-open the thread, but as I found a very direct answer to our discussion (with Heart) ... so I deliver

"Even though the single fundamental nature is pure and total consciousness, followers of mahayoga apply the three contemplations and the five rituals in order to fulfil the four 'approaches and accomplishments and to transform the vajra body, which is alread naturally pure, into the form of the deity and to realize its simultaneous appearance and insubstantiality'. Through commitment and effort they try to transform their mind into the deity and in consequence they do not see the true nature of mind, which is beyond action.

- Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra - The Chapter that demonstrates that all is contained in the Body, Voice, and Mind

:meditate:
Sönam


Sönam,

The Kunjed Gyalpo is pointing-out of the view of Ati for practitioners that have already practiced in the other 8 yanas. That is obvious all through the text. It is not at text that explains that it is unnecessary to practice the lower 8 yanas, denigrating the Buddhas teaching. To believe that is to gravely misunderstand the text. In a similar way most Tögal text start with explaining how superior Tögal is to Trechö. Do you understand that to mean that you should abandon Trechö when you reach Tögal? :smile:
Every Dzogchen master, at least in Tibet, has practiced a lot of Yidam. Both before and after gaining realization. Before and after Trechö and Tögal. Just read the life-stories of Longchenpa, Jigme Lingpa, Khyentse Wangpo, Adzom Drukpa, Shakya Shri, Dilgo Khyentse and Tulku Urgyen or why not Chögyal Namkhai Norbu.
There is a particular way to approach Yidam practice when you been introduced to the natural state, in fact Tulku Urgyen says it isn't possible to practice Yidam properly unless you been introduced to the natural state. However it isn't my place to try to explain it here. It is clearly explained in for example "Luminous Essence", Mipham Rinpoches commentary on the Guhyagarbha, and in the teachings of Tulku Urgyen.

/magnus
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby muni » Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:28 am

Sorry my friends, i hop in between your conversation.

Regarding the first question; whether one yidam or many yidam; wratful or kind; they are all of one taste, equal in Dharmakaya.

The deity is acomplished when nature of Dharmakaya is realized.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:40 pm

heart wrote:The Kunjed Gyalpo is pointing-out of the view of Ati for practitioners that have already practiced in the other 8 yanas. That is obvious all through the text. It is not at text that explains that it is unnecessary to practice the lower 8 yanas, denigrating the Buddhas teaching. To believe that is to gravely misunderstand the text.

/magnus


This is your view magnus, and certainly in many cases, practitioners train in lower yanas before ... nevertheless there is no direct connection between Mahayoga and Dzogpa Chenpo.

"Every vehicle has its level of realization, like a base, or support, along the path to enlightenment. However, as all the Buddhas of the three times, the teachers of the three dimensions, the beings of the three worlds, and all things that exist in the animate and inanimate world abide at the level of total perfection, pure and total consciousness, there is no need to train oneself to progress along the levels of realization."
- Kunjed Gyalpo -

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Josef » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:45 pm

Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:The Kunjed Gyalpo is pointing-out of the view of Ati for practitioners that have already practiced in the other 8 yanas. That is obvious all through the text. It is not at text that explains that it is unnecessary to practice the lower 8 yanas, denigrating the Buddhas teaching. To believe that is to gravely misunderstand the text.

/magnus

nevertheless there is no direct connection between Mahayoga and Dzogpa Chenpo.


Sönam

I think that to say there is no connection between Mahayoga and Dzogpa Chenpo goes too far.
You might be able to say that one can practice Dzogchen independent from Mahayoga or that one can practice Mahayoga independent from Dzogchen, but to say there is no connection is an over-statement.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:39 pm

Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:The Kunjed Gyalpo is pointing-out of the view of Ati for practitioners that have already practiced in the other 8 yanas. That is obvious all through the text. It is not at text that explains that it is unnecessary to practice the lower 8 yanas, denigrating the Buddhas teaching. To believe that is to gravely misunderstand the text.

/magnus


This is your view magnus, and certainly in many cases, practitioners train in lower yanas before ... nevertheless there is no direct connection between Mahayoga and Dzogpa Chenpo.

"Every vehicle has its level of realization, like a base, or support, along the path to enlightenment. However, as all the Buddhas of the three times, the teachers of the three dimensions, the beings of the three worlds, and all things that exist in the animate and inanimate world abide at the level of total perfection, pure and total consciousness, there is no need to train oneself to progress along the levels of realization."
- Kunjed Gyalpo -

Sönam


Can you name a single Dzogchen teacher, that have a fairly well known life story, that didn't practice Mahayoga? Please don't say Garab Dorje or Vajrasattva. :smile:
It is all theory Sönam. Theoretically you could practice only Dzogchen and certainly a few people in the Dzogchen Community try to do just that, but will they get any result? Looking through the history of Dzogchen masters they all practiced Mahayoga as well as the other Yanas both before, during and after gaining realization. The nine Yanas are not a ladder they are a toolbox.
In fact anyone considering the eight lower Yanas unnecessary have a very strong gradualist thinking. "This is higher then that" is the thinking of all devoted gradualist.
The view of Dzogchen is superior to everything but knowing that you still need to be practical and try to fully realize that view 24 hours a day. To do that you need tools and you need a qualified teacher.

/magnus
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Heruka » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:23 am

Nangwa wrote:I think that to say there is no connection between Mahayoga and Dzogpa Chenpo goes too far.
You might be able to say that one can practice Dzogchen independent from Mahayoga or that one can practice Mahayoga independent from Dzogchen, but to say there is no connection is an over-statement.


Semde tantras pretty much say the same thing, that applying effort to the state of total perfection is to "fall into the error of mahayoga" (the state>>>) that transcends all effort and striving is hindered by mahayoga.

Actually to realize mahayoga is on par with realization of vajradhara.
-=*=-
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:16 am

Heruka wrote:
Nangwa wrote:I think that to say there is no connection between Mahayoga and Dzogpa Chenpo goes too far.
You might be able to say that one can practice Dzogchen independent from Mahayoga or that one can practice Mahayoga independent from Dzogchen, but to say there is no connection is an over-statement.


Semde tantras pretty much say the same thing, that applying effort to the state of total perfection is to "fall into the error of mahayoga" (the state>>>) that transcends all effort and striving is hindered by mahayoga.

Actually to realize mahayoga is on par with realization of vajradhara.
-=*=-


Hindered by Mahayoga view that is. Nothing is actually said about method. Also the Mengade Tantras say that Semde Tantras view is in error. Does that mean that you shouldn't practice Semde?

"Dzogchen is the way to purify the most subtle obscuration of dualistic knowledge - it is something quite incredible. But if one only imagines it, if it is a mere theory, thinking "I don't need to do anything, neither meditate nor practice," one's has completely missed the point. There has been many people thinking like this in the past."

Tulku Urgyen


/magnus
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