Yidam and Dzogchen

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby narraboth » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:23 pm

heart wrote:Dear narraboth,

There is nothing wrong with Shamatha and like I said Shakya Shri, Tsele Natsok Rangdrol makes the same point as Khenpo Ngaga. I recently reread Sam van Schaiks "Approaching the Great Perfection" and there are a few very good texts he translated by Jigme Lingpa. In those texts he makes it very clear that there is a gradual way to practice Dzogchen and the truly direct approach (for example the text starting on page 208).
I have no idea who recognized the natural state and who didn't, I just try to follow my teachers instruction.

/magnus


hi

I have read about two methods too. I will try to get the book still.
but i am not sure how often you can get a container for the very direct method. My impression is that it's very rare. Maybe I am wrong, maybe people nowadays are much smarter. (?)

For jigmed lingpa's saying, there is a very critical but hard-to-understand paragraph in the middle of yeshe lama, he mentioned many cases that people think 'it's the thing' while it's actually not.

Surely we need to follow teacher's instruction. I am just wondering what I should do if I have both ugyen tulku rinpoche and namkhei norbu rinpoche as teachers; should I do ngondro then? :)
narraboth
 
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:18 pm

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:34 pm

narraboth wrote:
heart wrote:Dear narraboth,

There is nothing wrong with Shamatha and like I said Shakya Shri, Tsele Natsok Rangdrol makes the same point as Khenpo Ngaga. I recently reread Sam van Schaiks "Approaching the Great Perfection" and there are a few very good texts he translated by Jigme Lingpa. In those texts he makes it very clear that there is a gradual way to practice Dzogchen and the truly direct approach (for example the text starting on page 208).
I have no idea who recognized the natural state and who didn't, I just try to follow my teachers instruction.

/magnus


hi

I have read about two methods too. I will try to get the book still.
but i am not sure how often you can get a container for the very direct method. My impression is that it's very rare. Maybe I am wrong, maybe people nowadays are much smarter. (?)

For jigmed lingpa's saying, there is a very critical but hard-to-understand paragraph in the middle of yeshe lama, he mentioned many cases that people think 'it's the thing' while it's actually not.

Surely we need to follow teacher's instruction. I am just wondering what I should do if I have both ugyen tulku rinpoche and namkhei norbu rinpoche as teachers; should I do ngondro then? :)


Hi narraboth,

These matters are very subtle indeed and somewhat difficult to talk about. All masters say that the accumulation of merit and the purification of obscuration is what is necessary for the auspiciousness of direct introduction to occur. Doing Ngondro is a very good thing and for this reason in the Longchen Nyinthig tradition they spend about 2 years of the a normal 3-year retreat on Ngondro. But my advice, if you need one, is that you bring this subject up with the master you feel is close to your heart and insist on resolving the issue. And if the problem is not recognizing but rather deciding on one point then all you need is confidence and a lot of time on the pillow.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3099
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:37 am

"The practice of Dharma should bring you to the point where you can maintain the same constant awareness whether in or out of practice sessions. This is the quintessential point of all spiritual instruction; without it, however many mantras and prayers you recite, however many thousands of prostrations and circumambulations you do, as long as your mind remains distracted none of it will help to get rid of your obscuring emotions. Never forget this most crucial point."

Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3099
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:45 pm

In his today teaching, ChNN has been very clear on that point (ngondrö) ... for a Dzogchen Practitioner, because of direct introduction, there is no need for ngondrö.
ChNN says he knows that many masters disagree with him, but ... Garab Dorjé which is "The" Master has only given THree statements, direct introduction, take a decision, continue within. GD was fully unlightened, if ngondrö would have been a necessity, he would have speak of four statements, the first being "ngondrö".
ChNN also says that it is not bad to make ngondrö ... if you have some time to spend!

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:27 pm

Sönam wrote:In his today teaching, ChNN has been very clear on that point (ngondrö) ... for a Dzogchen Practitioner, because of direct introduction, there is no need for ngondrö.
ChNN says he knows that many masters disagree with him, but ... Garab Dorjé which is "The" Master has only given THree statements, direct introduction, take a decision, continue within. GD was fully unlightened, if ngondrö would have been a necessity, he would have speak of four statements, the first being "ngondrö".
ChNN also says that it is not bad to make ngondrö ... if you have some time to spend!

Sönam


With full respect for ChNN I must say that I don't understand his reasoning in this question. Garab Dorje didn't say do Rushan, Semzins or Guru Yoga either, right? Garab Dorje is just discussing the main point of Dzogchen, not how to get there. Just because you are a student of ChNN doesn't mean you actually recognized your natural state and most definitely not that you decided on one point or gained confidence in self-liberation. No disrespect to the master or his students but it have to be said.

Discussion with a friend that participated in a retreat with ChNN.
me: "So you got the pointing-out instruction?"
he: "Yes"
me: "So how was it?"
he: "Well, he shouted Phat and I saw some kind of light"

"Some kind of light" is not really the natural state, is it?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3099
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Mr. G » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:31 pm

Yes, ChNN has said there is no need for Ngondro, but he has never discouraged those from practicing it for those that want to....and sometimes I think for those that need to.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
User avatar
Mr. G
 
Posts: 4098
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:36 am
Location: Spaceship Earth

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:58 pm

mr. gordo wrote:Yes, ChNN has said there is no need for Ngondro, but he has never discouraged those from practicing it for those that want to....and sometimes I think for those that need to.


I heard him say many times that it is actually very good to do the Ngondro, "just maybe a little unpractical for westerners".

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3099
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:03 pm

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:Discussion with a friend that participated in a retreat with ChNN.
me: "So you got the pointing-out instruction?"
he: "Yes"
me: "So how was it?"
he: "Well, he shouted Phat and I saw some kind of light"

"Some kind of light" is not really the natural state, is it?

/magnus


This is a (funny) nice story ... when the natural state is recognized it's a re-cognition, no doubt still exist.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:06 pm

heart wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:Yes, ChNN has said there is no need for Ngondro, but he has never discouraged those from practicing it for those that want to....and sometimes I think for those that need to.


I heard him say many times that it is actually very good to do the Ngondro, "just maybe a little unpractical for westerners".

/magnus


I know it does not fit with your approach, but he clearly said that Dzogchen, natural state, does not need ngondrö ... that ngondrö is vajrayana.

You should listen to today's recording ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Mr. G » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:26 pm

heart wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:Yes, ChNN has said there is no need for Ngondro, but he has never discouraged those from practicing it for those that want to....and sometimes I think for those that need to.


I heard him say many times that it is actually very good to do the Ngondro, "just maybe a little unpractical for westerners".

/magnus


Yes, he never poo-pooed Ngondro
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
User avatar
Mr. G
 
Posts: 4098
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:36 am
Location: Spaceship Earth

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:19 pm

Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:Yes, ChNN has said there is no need for Ngondro, but he has never discouraged those from practicing it for those that want to....and sometimes I think for those that need to.


I heard him say many times that it is actually very good to do the Ngondro, "just maybe a little unpractical for westerners".

/magnus


I know it does not fit with your approach, but he clearly said that Dzogchen, natural state, does not need ngondrö ... that ngondrö is vajrayana.

You should listen to today's recording ...

Sönam


Well, I am not a member, so I can't. The natural state isn't dependent on anything, the only problem is that you actually have to recognize it. So how do you recognize it? Isn't this the point of teaching Semdzin, Rushen and Guru Yoga that ChNN do? Please feel free to quote Garab Dorje saying that first you do the Semdzin, Rushen and Guru Yoga. "My approach", as you call it, is a very normal Dzogchen teaching style, ChNN is the one that is unusual.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3099
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:34 pm

Sönam wrote:
... ngondrö is vajrayana.

You should listen to today's recording ...


Dzogchen is Vajrayana, ask ChNN if you don't believe me.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3099
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Mr. G » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:31 am

Yes, ChNN on many of his tantric teachings say that they also lead to awakening....his Green Tara, Sinhamukha, Guru Draphur, etc. And of course he always stressed Guru Yoga...which is in ngondro.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
User avatar
Mr. G
 
Posts: 4098
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:36 am
Location: Spaceship Earth

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:52 am

mr. gordo wrote:Yes, ChNN on many of his tantric teachings say that they also lead to awakening....his Green Tara, Sinhamukha, Guru Draphur, etc. And of course he always stressed Guru Yoga...which is in ngondro.


Well ... The kind of Guru Yoga, part of ngondrö, is not exactely fully the same than the Guru yoga as only Dzogchen practice.
Of course tantric teachings also lead to awakening, he even says sutra style teaching leads to awakening ... the whole Buddha Dharma leads to awakening.
When you eat an apple you do not eat an orange ... but they both contain sugar.
As for Dzogchen being Vajrayana, ChNN makes some nuances ... vajrayana is included in Dzogchen. Can ask ChNN about that too.

but finally, who cares ...
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:35 am

Sönam wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:Yes, ChNN on many of his tantric teachings say that they also lead to awakening....his Green Tara, Sinhamukha, Guru Draphur, etc. And of course he always stressed Guru Yoga...which is in ngondro.


Well ... The kind of Guru Yoga, part of ngondrö, is not exactely fully the same than the Guru yoga as only Dzogchen practice.
Of course tantric teachings also lead to awakening, he even says sutra style teaching leads to awakening ... the whole Buddha Dharma leads to awakening.
When you eat an apple you do not eat an orange ... but they both contain sugar.
As for Dzogchen being Vajrayana, ChNN makes some nuances ... vajrayana is included in Dzogchen. Can ask ChNN about that too.

but finally, who cares ...


Well you certainly seems to care Sönam :smile:

The "Guru Yoga with a white A" is not an unusual Guru Yoga. A friend told me that it is very much like the Chetsun Nyingthig Ngöndro Guru Yoga, I don't have the Chetsun Nyingthig empowerment so I can't compare them.


Actually I don't care much if you don't want to do Ngondro or not. I just follow my teacher and the Dzogchen teachings I get from him are incredibly direct, it is like listening to Longchenpa or Manjusrimitra in person. Most certainly it would be worth doing the Ngondro several times for that. I wouldn't hesitate to do it again. You need a lot of trust, devotion to actually be able to cut trough to the natural state, the intellect just isn't up to it. On the top of that you need a very spacious open and compassionate mind to be able to decide on it.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3099
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:38 pm

It's not that I care Magnus, but as I just received fresh informations, I want to share them ...

Ngondrö has certainly an interest as it occupies the mind (sem) ... it is not the strategy proposed by all great dzogchen masters from the past, it is even contradictory, but it is true that it is better to follow a living master and forget about the scriptures ...
Ngondrö has been a rewarding activity in old Tibet ... which is no more. Tradition is tradition, also when lineages show no sign of ngondrö.
For the little story, and to avoid any ... wandering thoughts, I received my first (personnal, one to one) direct pointing out instructions in 1975. Then I did'nt follow a classical cursus ...

May your practice brings you complete fruition in this life ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:24 pm

Sönam wrote:It's not that I care Magnus, but as I just received fresh informations, I want to share them ...

Ngondrö has certainly an interest as it occupies the mind (sem) ... it is not the strategy proposed by all great dzogchen masters from the past, it is even contradictory, but it is true that it is better to follow a living master and forget about the scriptures ...
Ngondrö has been a rewarding activity in old Tibet ... which is no more. Tradition is tradition, also when lineages show no sign of ngondrö.
For the little story, and to avoid any ... wandering thoughts, I received my first (personnal, one to one) direct pointing out instructions in 1975. Then I did'nt follow a classical cursus ...

May your practice brings you complete fruition in this life ...

Sönam


You obviously know very little of the Dzogchen lineages if you say that Ngondro is contradictory to Dzogchen practice. Please tell me which Dzogchen master of the past that ever have said this and what lineages that have this tradition to disregard Ngondro?
Not even ChNN disregard Ngondro as they do Ngondro on the higher levels of Santimaha sangha. I have never heard him say that Ngondro is bad for the Dzogchen practioner, on the contrary I heard him say that it is "very good" many times.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3099
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:38 pm

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:It's not that I care Magnus, but as I just received fresh informations, I want to share them ...

Ngondrö has certainly an interest as it occupies the mind (sem) ... it is not the strategy proposed by all great dzogchen masters from the past, it is even contradictory, but it is true that it is better to follow a living master and forget about the scriptures ...
Ngondrö has been a rewarding activity in old Tibet ... which is no more. Tradition is tradition, also when lineages show no sign of ngondrö.
For the little story, and to avoid any ... wandering thoughts, I received my first (personnal, one to one) direct pointing out instructions in 1975. Then I did'nt follow a classical cursus ...

May your practice brings you complete fruition in this life ...

Sönam


You obviously know very little of the Dzogchen lineages if you say that Ngondro is contradictory to Dzogchen practice. Please tell me which Dzogchen master of the past that ever have said this and what lineages that have this tradition to disregard Ngondro?
Not even ChNN disregard Ngondro as they do Ngondro on the higher levels of Santimaha sangha. I have never heard him say that Ngondro is bad for the Dzogchen practioner, on the contrary I heard him say that it is "very good" many times.

/magnus


I did'nt say that master of the past disregard ngondrö ... I just say that few masters from the lineages did practice ngondrö.
About my poor knowledge of Dzogchen lineages ... ngondrö use mind (sem) therefore as such are not dzogchen (being the path and the fruit). They are ngondrö, preparatory.
ChNN do not disregard ngondrö, certainly, as he teaches on a large spectrum ...

But we already had this discussion, so there is no advantage to continue it ... I just came with because ChNN was just speaking about, that's all.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:52 pm

Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:It's not that I care Magnus, but as I just received fresh informations, I want to share them ...

Ngondrö has certainly an interest as it occupies the mind (sem) ... it is not the strategy proposed by all great dzogchen masters from the past, it is even contradictory, but it is true that it is better to follow a living master and forget about the scriptures ...
Ngondrö has been a rewarding activity in old Tibet ... which is no more. Tradition is tradition, also when lineages show no sign of ngondrö.
For the little story, and to avoid any ... wandering thoughts, I received my first (personnal, one to one) direct pointing out instructions in 1975. Then I did'nt follow a classical cursus ...

May your practice brings you complete fruition in this life ...

Sönam


You obviously know very little of the Dzogchen lineages if you say that Ngondro is contradictory to Dzogchen practice. Please tell me which Dzogchen master of the past that ever have said this and what lineages that have this tradition to disregard Ngondro?
Not even ChNN disregard Ngondro as they do Ngondro on the higher levels of Santimaha sangha. I have never heard him say that Ngondro is bad for the Dzogchen practioner, on the contrary I heard him say that it is "very good" many times.

/magnus


I did'nt say that master of the past disregard ngondrö ... I just say that few masters from the lineages did practice ngondrö.
About my poor knowledge of Dzogchen lineages ... ngondrö use mind (sem) therefore as such are not dzogchen (being the path and the fruit). They are ngondrö, preparatory.
ChNN do not disregard ngondrö, certainly, as he teaches on a large spectrum ...

But we already had this discussion, so there is no advantage to continue it ... I just came with because ChNN was just speaking about, that's all.

Sönam


How long can you stay in rigpa (the natural state) during one hour of meditation Sönam? The time you not are in rigpa you will be, by necessity, in mind (sem) isn't that right? You can't push rigpa, can you? Wouldn't it be better to use those moments i mind (sem) doing something that might bring you faster to rigpa rather than pretend that you are in rigpa?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3099
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:40 pm

heart wrote:How long can you stay in rigpa (the natural state) during one hour of meditation Sönam? The time you not are in rigpa you will be, by necessity, in mind (sem) isn't that right? You can't push rigpa, can you? Wouldn't it be better to use those moments i mind (sem) doing something that might bring you faster to rigpa rather than pretend that you are in rigpa?

/magnus


Yes if it brings you faster ... I suppose your guru ask you to do gondrö because it was adapted to your need, not sure if asks the same to all his students.
My root guru (which is not ChNN) proposed ngondrö to a friend of mine, in the same time he considered it was not a necessity for me ... I suppose we receive and it happens, to each of us, what should happen ... Everything being always perfect, at the right place, at the right moment.

By the way regarding guru yoga, white A and Thilé is only a symbole, it is not a necessity, many "direct" methods could be practiced (ChNN just did say it today, and I wrote it down ... did'nt know why at the time ... but I'm used with that)

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

PreviousNext

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

>