Yidam and Dzogchen

Heruka
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Heruka »

mutsuk wrote:
heart wrote:Still respect is a good thing and maybe it should be applied also to the traditional way of teaching and practicing Dzogchen.
Good point indeed magnus!
heruka wrote: im going to go to the mall, in that action and conduct, is that also ngondro too to dzogchenpa?
Care to be more explicit ? Ordinary Ngondro (the 4 thoughts) and extraordinary Ngondro (Refuge, bodhicitta, etc.) are common to sutras, tantras and Dzogchen. That is a literary fact and a practice fact.

if by practice you mean ritual, if by prelimaries you mean preparation, if by commentary you mean an understanding, then all things can be viewed as such, but that is not explicit as you say. it is only explict if one is aware of it.
Now if you want some quotes, volume I of the commentary on the Dra Thelgyur by Garab Dorje (I, p. 684):
"— O master, holder of the Vajra!
Single antitode to Samsara and the three realms,
Refuge of migrating beings without protection,
Great Ladder leading to the Path Liberation:
I take Refuge in you, the Lamp dispelling ignorance,
To be protected from the hords of darkness."
Now if you need more references to preliminary practices in Dzogchen cycles, go to the TBRC website and look at the contents of the various Nyingthiks there, you'll find Ngondro in nearly each of them.

please explain for others benefit since you raised this quote.
mutsuk
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by mutsuk »

The question that was raised by Sônam is that he doubted Garab Dorje and the early linege masters of Dzogchen wrote anything about Ngondro. Now you have your answer: they have written stuff about Ngondro. That is a literary fact.
Heruka wrote: if by practice you mean ritual,
In the context we are discussing, by preliminaries I mean both ordinary and extraordinary preliminaries.
if by prelimaries you mean preparation,
By preliminaries, I mean what preliminaries are in Tibetan Buddhism.
if by commentary you mean an understanding,
By commentary, here, I meant a work which has canonical authority for the tradition.
please explain for others benefit since you raised this quote.
What do you mean ? Isn't that clear enough ?

As was said earlier in these posts, opinions on this subject are totally superfluous. Open a cycle of Nyingthik teachings and you'll see Ngondros are there. I wonder where the problem is...
Heruka
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Heruka »

mutsuk wrote:The question that was raised by Sônam is that he doubted Garab Dorje and the early linege masters of Dzogchen wrote anything about Ngondro. Now you have your answer: they have written stuff about Ngondro. That is a literary fact.

...
Garab Dorje never wrote anything at all, his pupil did in fact codify garab dorjes teachings through the lens of mind only school, tradition would have us beleive that the seventeen tantras came all from one source, but we can see different hands at work at different times, the great jigmed Lingpas cycle is quite modern.
As was said earlier in these posts, opinions on this subject are totally superfluous. Open a cycle of Nyingthik teachings and you'll see Ngondros are there. I wonder where the problem is...
so no, i dont have my answer yet.
Pero
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pero »

Hello old friends, after much delibaration I joined here. I hope you've all been well. :hi:

Hmm I don't know where to start after 9 pages... Maybe it'll be kind of backwards haha.
Well, I guess what I'd like to say is that I think that Longchen Nyingthig being Dzogchen only is a mistake. As far as I understand (please correct me if I say something wrong), Longchen Nyingthig is a cycle of teachings revealed by Jigmed Lingpa. Within that cycle there are not only Dzogchen teachings. For example the 4 awarenesses (sp?) aren't Dzogchen no matter what you say. Helpful to ones practice though? That's another matter. So it's not strange to find Tantric ngondro in various cycles but I don't think they're to be equated with Dzogchen.

Anyhow...
Mutsuk wrote: Care to be more explicit ? Ordinary Ngondro (the 4 thoughts) and extraordinary Ngondro (Refuge, bodhicitta, etc.) are common to sutras, tantras and Dzogchen. That is a literary fact and a practice fact. Now if you want some quotes, volume I of the commentary on the Dra Thelgyur by Garab Dorje (I, p. 684):
"— O master, holder of the Vajra!
...."
Now if you need more references to preliminary practices in Dzogchen cycles, go to the TBRC website and look at the contents of the various Nyingthiks there, you'll find Ngondro in nearly each of them.
This is not a sufficient quote because it's not a teaching on Ngondro or saying to do it. This is simply refuge and there isn't anything strange about that since there is refuge in Dzogchen.

BTW, I didn't know there was a commentary on Dra Thalgyur by Garab Dorje too. Also, do you read Tibetan? Or where did you get this quote?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pero »

heart wrote: Garab Dorje didn't say do Rushan, Semzins or Guru Yoga either, right? Garab Dorje is just discussing the main point of Dzogchen, not how to get there.
Yes but Rushan and Semdzins are connected to Direct Introduction, if we didn't "get it" those are some of the main things we should do. I think that Rinpoche says this kind of thing mainly in reference to teachers who don't want to give DI until one has completed ngondro and probably because he was being criticised for his way of doing things in the begining. This is just my opinion though.
And for Rinpoche Guru Yoga means being in the natural state so I don't see a contradiction.
Just because you are a student of ChNN doesn't mean you actually recognized your natural state and most definitely not that you decided on one point or gained confidence in self-liberation. No disrespect to the master or his students but it have to be said.
True enough... Would be great if it wasn't though. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pero »

Ngawang Drolma wrote: webcasts are wonderful exposure, but don't arm a student with the blessings and introduction needed to practice tantra. Reading books or hearing podcasts, or watching Internet events are not equivalent of receiving the abhishekas. You have to literally be in front of the guru for that.
This isn't quite true. You have to be in front of the teacher for elaborate/formal initiations, these aren't the only kind though.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
mutsuk
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by mutsuk »

Heruka wrote: Garab Dorje never wrote anything at all,
Well this, you don't know. From an academic perspective Garab Dorje is not an historical figure. For the tradition, he codified the teachings of Dzogchen. So he wrote most of them. He is credited with the Nam-mkha' che, with the bTags-grol don-khrid and sevreral others.
his pupil did in fact codify garab dorjes teachings
Wrong, he classified what was already written, and dispatched this corpus into the 3 series.
through the lens of mind only school,
Sure this is how everything that's been written by Manjushrimitra is quite recognizable. And I can tell you there is not so much about Manjushrimitra in the Nyingthiks. By this I mean actual works written by him. You have several of them in the Bima Nyingthik for instance, they have nothing in common in terms of style with the rest of the collection.
tradition would have us beleive that the seventeen tantras came all from one source, but we can see different hands at work at different times,
The differences are in terms of style, not contents. On the contrary there is an enormous coherency in these works.
the great jigmed Lingpas cycle is quite modern.
This does not change anything to the fact that in the earliest Nyingthik you have Ngondro. Period.
so no, i dont have my answer yet.
Well I guess you'll have to live with it! Or just go to TBRC and make your opinion by yourself by looking at the texts themselves. Opinions are of no interest, especially when they are based on ignorance and not on knowledge of the texts themselves.
mutsuk
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by mutsuk »

Pero wrote: BTW, I didn't know there was a commentary on Dra Thalgyur by Garab Dorje too. Also, do you read Tibetan? Or where did you get this quote?
There is a 2-volume commentary on this text. My mistake, it's attributed to Vimalamitra. Sorry. And yes I do read tibetan.
mutsuk
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by mutsuk »

Pero wrote: This is not a sufficient quote because it's not a teaching on Ngondro or saying to do it. This is simply refuge and there isn't anything strange about that since there is refuge in Dzogchen.
Then read the bTags-grol don-khrid (in the mKha'-'gro snying-thig) which the colophon attributes to Garab Dorje and in which the author states to meditate on impermanence, compassion and bodhicitta. The oral transmission that goes with the texts says that you do your full Ngondro at that stage, before moving to the Rushen.
Pero
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pero »

mutsuk wrote:
Pero wrote: BTW, I didn't know there was a commentary on Dra Thalgyur by Garab Dorje too. Also, do you read Tibetan? Or where did you get this quote?
There is a 2-volume commentary on this text. My mistake, it's attributed to Vimalamitra. Sorry. And yes I do read tibetan.
Ahh... Oh there are two volumes? I found just one and thought that one was big enough (700+) haha. :)
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
mutsuk
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by mutsuk »

Pero wrote: Ahh... Oh there are two volumes? I found just one and thought that one was big enough (700+) haha. :)
Volume I has 707 pages and volume II, 957 pages...
Pero
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pero »

mutsuk wrote: Then read the bTags-grol don-khrid (in the mKha'-'gro snying-thig) which the colophon attributes to Garab Dorje and in which the author states to meditate on impermanence, compassion and bodhicitta. The oral transmission that goes with the texts says that you do your full Ngondro at that stage, before moving to the Rushen.
I'll look, but I'm afraid my Tibetan is very very very limited. :(
When I was talking about quotes I meant translated ones haha.

But also this is a cycle of teachings, I presume from the very basics on up.
Volume I has 707 pages and volume II, 957 pages...
Whoa you don't say... Is the commentary difficult to understand? I haven't tried reading it yet.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
mutsuk
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by mutsuk »

Pero wrote: Whoa you don't say... Is the commentary difficult to understand? I haven't tried reading it yet.
Well some sections are very easy, others terribly complex to render into a proper translation. It all depends on your level of Tibetan.
muni
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by muni »

it appear that Dzogchen is a standard product for all like in a factory of milk. All bottles nicely same treadment. Chak, chak. Each a sticker. All humans on a row. Chak chak. Standard Dzogchen which is authentic, okay.
Some need this and that, some a movement of a small finger to remain. (awareness) Respect for all.
mutsuk
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by mutsuk »

muni wrote:it appear that Dzogchen is a standard product for all like in a factory of milk. All bottles nicely same treadment. Chak, chak. Each a sticker. All humans on a row. Chak chak. Standard Dzogchen which is authentic, okay.
Some need this and that, some a movement of a small finger to remain. (awareness) Respect for all.
Of course respect for all, but first respect for the tradition. However, I don't think your image actually fits with the way Dzogchen is actually transmitted and how it is actually practiced. You can't do your own Dzogchen. Dzogchen is Dzogchen. You have the qualifications for practicing it or your don't. If you don't then you train in specific ways so that you become a fit vessel for yourself. If you lower the level of the teachings to your own level, then you don't progress and what you get is not Dzogchen. There is a reason why Dzogchen is on the top of the nine yanas.
muni
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by muni »

mutsuk wrote:
muni wrote:it appear that Dzogchen is a standard product for all like in a factory of milk. All bottles nicely same treadment. Chak, chak. Each a sticker. All humans on a row. Chak chak. Standard Dzogchen which is authentic, okay.
Some need this and that, some a movement of a small finger to remain. (awareness) Respect for all.
Of course respect for all, but first respect for the tradition. However, I don't think your image actually fits with the way Dzogchen is actually transmitted and how it is actually practiced. You can't do your own Dzogchen. Dzogchen is Dzogchen. You have the qualifications for practicing it or your don't. If you don't then you train in specific ways so that you become a fit vessel for yourself. If you lower the level of the teachings to your own level, then you don't progress and what you get is not Dzogchen. There is a reason why Dzogchen is on the top of the nine yanas.
Awareness. Awareness. Awareness.
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heart
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart »

muni wrote: Awareness. Awareness. Awareness.
You certainly lack respect for mutsuk and this discussion muni, that response is ridiculous.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
muni
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by muni »

heart wrote:
muni wrote: Awareness. Awareness. Awareness.
You certainly lack respect for mutsuk and this discussion muni, that response is ridiculous.

/magnus
No "higher" respect than to remain aware.
narraboth
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by narraboth »

muni wrote:
heart wrote:
muni wrote: Awareness. Awareness. Awareness.
You certainly lack respect for mutsuk and this discussion muni, that response is ridiculous.

/magnus
No "higher" respect than to remain aware.
I think this discussion pretty much link to our another topic about recognition of mind.

Yes, there is no higher practice than to remain in awareness/rigpa , but are you awaring the correct thing???

If your aware is just a kind of 'common awake', like useless shells of rice, then you still need to do purification and accumulation, otherwise you can't help but fall into darkness. Not to mention if there is pride generated in your mind when you think you are 'aware'!
muni
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by muni »

Yes.

Respect for other teachers who are not strictly following same system. That is all. Awareness. Yes, it looks strange, to answer so.

How we draw concepts about "others" by handful words. A chain of concepts rolling into a theatre like scenario about what isnt.

Ah!
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