Namdrol wrote: Kai wrote:
Jamgon Kongtrul is a great Kagyu master but He is a famed Dzogchen master, so His conclusion can't be far away from the truth and it also resolves certain "dilemmas" in this thread.
There are two systems. One in which the sixteen bhumis directly correspond with the thirteen bhumis + three
. Another where the bhumis are given as descriptive names for experiences through the four visions.
They are both correct explanations.
I understand your point, Namdrol. However, I flapped through the book again and refer back to JKT's POV. He treated the five paths as a whole and state that all five paths are perfected instantly and together. Interesting enough, never once did he claimed the viewpoint as shown in bold text above which make I wonder why........
As a result, I looked into Longchenpa's written texts (Namkha Longchen & Tshigdon Dzod) and His treatment of the 16 Bhumis as related to the 16 experiences found in the four visions, is basically similar to JKT, so there is nothing to say on this. However, whats that caught my eyes, is the following:
By progressing in the experiences of that meditation, one attains the four visions. First in the (first) vision of direct realization of the ultimate nature, one achieves the experiences of realization equivalent to that of the path of accumulation...............
..........Then in the (second)vision of the increase of experiences which is similar to the path of application..............
.............Then in the (third) vision of perfection of the intrinsic awareness, in the first, middle and final stages, One realize the paths of seeing and meditation (Until the seventh Bhumi).......
Then in the (fourth and last) vision of cessation into the ultimate nature, Because in the Three Pure Stages (8th to 10th Bhumis), the host of conceptual defilements are manifestly exhausted and the gross bodies are exhausted and the delusory perceptions are exahusted, this vision is called the dissolution. This vision is the great luminous intrinsic wisdom.......
It is understood that Three Pure Stages are eighth through the tenth-level of pure bhumis, which in certain Tibetan systems/schools is equivalent to the path of no more learning
while the impure Bhumis from the 1st to 7th in those systems, belong to the path of seeing and mediation. And interesting enough, Longchenpa didn't mention 11th to 16th Bhumis or their names at all in this correspondence. He seems to be contended with the fact that the Tenth Bhumi is the penultimate destination for Dzogchen practitioners
. Not surprisingly, Longchenpa did the same thing in His treatment of tantric paths earlier by relating each pair of the twenty first knots in the central channels to one Bhumi each while at the conclusion of His test, stating the last knot opening the door to the attainment of the supreme level of Vajradhara
So, Longchenpa, like JKT (In His own ways) after him, doesn't seem to agree with the system of relating Dzogchen's 16 Bhumis directly with the Sutric ten Bhumis. Furthermore, up to date, I still fail to find a text that talked about a direct correspondence between the former and latter from the two masters which is rather strange since both of them knew and wrote a great deal on Dzogchen and if they found those POVs important, they would have written it down which they didn't.
So, may I ask which Nyingma schools or masters agree with the 10 + 6 Bhumis system? And where can I read more about the correspondence?