samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

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samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

Postby tomamundsen » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:53 am

I read in a book about Bon (the oral tradition of zhang zhung) that their rushens are to distinguish the mind from the nature of the mind, which is equivalent to distinguishing between samsara and nirvana. Is this also true in Buddhist dzogchen? Are there any scriptural citations for this, be it sutra or tantra?
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Re: samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:56 am

tomamundsen wrote:I read in a book about Bon (the oral tradition of zhang zhung) that their rushens are to distinguish the mind from the nature of the mind, which is equivalent to distinguishing between samsara and nirvana. Is this also true in Buddhist dzogchen? Are there any scriptural citations for this, be it sutra or tantra?


Oh definitely yes. Triyig Yeshe Lama and all other renditions of Dzogchen preliminaries have rushens, outer and inner, and all rushen practices are for distinguishing mind from nature of mind, which means distinguishing samsara from nirvana.
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Re: samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

Postby tomamundsen » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:12 am

deepbluehum wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:I read in a book about Bon (the oral tradition of zhang zhung) that their rushens are to distinguish the mind from the nature of the mind, which is equivalent to distinguishing between samsara and nirvana. Is this also true in Buddhist dzogchen? Are there any scriptural citations for this, be it sutra or tantra?


Oh definitely yes. Triyig Yeshe Lama and all other renditions of Dzogchen preliminaries have rushens, outer and inner, and all rushen practices are for distinguishing mind from nature of mind, which means distinguishing samsara from nirvana.

that was easy. this is a very profound teaching... something I will have to ponder about for weeks or months.

thanks!
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Re: samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

Postby oldbob » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:14 am

tomamundsen wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:I read in a book about Bon (the oral tradition of zhang zhung) that their rushens are to distinguish the mind from the nature of the mind, which is equivalent to distinguishing between samsara and nirvana. Is this also true in Buddhist dzogchen? Are there any scriptural citations for this, be it sutra or tantra?


Oh definitely yes. Triyig Yeshe Lama and all other renditions of Dzogchen preliminaries have rushens, outer and inner, and all rushen practices are for distinguishing mind from nature of mind, which means distinguishing samsara from nirvana.

that was easy. this is a very profound teaching... something I will have to ponder about for weeks or months.

thanks!


Yes, it is a profound series of Teachings. Did my first Yeshe Lama in 1980 under Ven. Lama Gonpo Tsetan. ChNNR came to visit and they drank beer and sang Lama songs together. In Triyig Yeshe Lama these things are very secret. Now not so secret. You have to jump through a certification hoop, but you can find an excellent translation at:

http://www.shambhala.com/yeshe-lama.html

"Restricted Text:

To purchase or own a copy of Yeshe Lama you must have received the Rig pa'i tsal wang ["empowerment into the dynamic energy of awareness"] and the reading transmission of Yeshe Lama from a qualified lineage holder, or have received the Rig pa'i tsal wang from another Dzogchen text along with permission to study Yeshe Lama from a qualified lineage holder. To order through our website, you must read the four questions listed in the next paragraph and then answer them (in the comments section of the checkout form). This book cannot be ordered by phone. To order by mail or fax, please include a letter answering these four questions:

1. Have you received the Rig pa'i tsal wang ["empowerment into the dynamic energy of awareness"] from a qualified lineage holder?
2. Name of the lineage holder who gave you the above, the location where you received it, and the date.
3. Have you received the reading transmission of Yeshe Lama or permission to study Yeshe Lama from a qualified lineage holder?
4. Name of the lineage holder who gave you the above, the location where you received it, and the date.

Without the satisfactory completion of all the above four questions, Shambhala is not authorized by the translators to sell this book, nor is Snow Lion authorized to discuss or negotiate this issue with potential customers. If you would like to discuss these requirements, please write to the translators. They can be reached at: sangyekhandro@gmail.com"

That said:

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.ph ... etail&p=97

has the rushens and semzins from the Yeshe Lama and you just need to have direct introduction, on the web, (given almost every webcast) from ChNNR.

There is also a little book, I think available from SS Austria, that has the full instructions for the 21 Semzin.

The Te Yeshe Lama includes Tregchod and Togyal and is normally studied / practiced in a retreat setting. I highly recommend this retreat as it is a very concentrated redaction of the Longchen Nyingthig practice essence by the all knowing, Jigmed Lingpa. I believe that there is a Yeshe lama retreat in Oregon, USA, every Summer.

You might want to write to Sangye Khandro.

Rushen / semzin teachings are also held at various times in the DC, and I believe there was a full outer rushen retreat held in Russia (open to all with transmission) this Summer.

I have taught the outer Rushen / Semzins in Europe,with Oliver Leick, and it went well. Not so complicated - well maybe a little.

:smile:

ob
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Re: samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

Postby mutsuk » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:53 pm

tomamundsen wrote:I read in a book about Bon (the oral tradition of zhang zhung) that their rushens...


You might be interested to know that there are no outer Rushen in the Zhangzhung Nyengyü collection, nor secret ones, only the inner Rushen. It is quite different from the inner Rushen of the Nyingma tradition, although it is based on an approach which has the same aim (in the case of the inner Rushen: the purification of the seeds of the six destinies).
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Re: samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

Postby heart » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:12 pm

mutsuk wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:I read in a book about Bon (the oral tradition of zhang zhung) that their rushens...


You might be interested to know that there are no outer Rushen in the Zhangzhung Nyengyü collection, nor secret ones, only the inner Rushen. It is quite different from the inner Rushen of the Nyingma tradition, although it is based on an approach which has the same aim (in the case of the inner Rushen: the purification of the seeds of the six destinies).


My main Dzogchen practice has only secret rushan instructions. It used to bother me little, now and then, until I read the excellent introduction by Cortland Dahl in this book http://www.shambhala.com/great-perfecti ... me-ii.html . He says that there among the Nyingma Nyinthig teachings are many that have different sets of rushan and the generally accepted outer, inner, secret rushan are not that usual. He quotes Longchenpa saying that only the secret rushan is truly necessary.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

Postby mutsuk » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:35 pm

Generally in the Bon tradition there exists only outer and inner Rushen (in the ZZNG only inner Rushen). In Bon, the "secret" Rushen are actually the "training of the three doors" (sgo gsum sbyang ba). If you look at ancient cycles such as the Yangti of Guru Chöwang, there are no "secret " Rushen. So this sure depends on what cycle is concerned. However, in some texts, secret rushen (=training of the three doors) are considered as the preliminaries of Trekchö, whereas outer and inner Rushen are the preliminaries of Thögel. But in actual practice, they are performed one after the other (each with a specific number of days/weeks), and then you go into the main practice.
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Re: samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

Postby Silent Bob » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:35 pm

heart wrote:My main Dzogchen practice has only secret rushan instructions. It used to bother me little, now and then, until I read the excellent introduction by Cortland Dahl in this book http://www.shambhala.com/great-perfection-volume-ii.html . He says that there among the Nyingma Nyinthig teachings are many that have different sets of rushan and the generally accepted outer, inner, secret rushan are not that usual. He quotes Longchenpa saying that only the secret rushan is truly necessary.

/magnus


An excellent book, BTW.
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
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Re: samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:42 pm

This excellent path, unmistaken when it comes to cause and result,
Comes from following true masters.
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Re: samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

Postby heart » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:52 pm

mutsuk wrote:Generally in the Bon tradition there exists only outer and inner Rushen (in the ZZNG only inner Rushen). In Bon, the "secret" Rushen are actually the "training of the three doors" (sgo gsum sbyang ba). If you look at ancient cycles such as the Yangti of Guru Chöwang, there are no "secret " Rushen. So this sure depends on what cycle is concerned. However, in some texts, secret rushen (=training of the three doors) are considered as the preliminaries of Trekchö, whereas outer and inner Rushen are the preliminaries of Thögel. But in actual practice, they are performed one after the other (each with a specific number of days/weeks), and then you go into the main practice.


Yes, that is true, for example in the "Lam Rim Yeshe Nyingpo" (the light of wisdom). But it doesn't really matter what it is called, secret rushan or training in the three doors if they are the same.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

Postby tomamundsen » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:41 am

oldbob wrote:
Yes, it is a profound series of Teachings. Did my first Yeshe Lama in 1980 under Ven. Lama Gonpo Tsetan. ChNNR came to visit and they drank beer and sang Lama songs together. In Triyig Yeshe Lama these things are very secret. Now not so secret. You have to jump through a certification hoop, but you can find an excellent translation at:

http://www.shambhala.com/yeshe-lama.html

"Restricted Text:

To purchase or own a copy of Yeshe Lama you must have received the Rig pa'i tsal wang ["empowerment into the dynamic energy of awareness"] and the reading transmission of Yeshe Lama from a qualified lineage holder, or have received the Rig pa'i tsal wang from another Dzogchen text along with permission to study Yeshe Lama from a qualified lineage holder. To order through our website, you must read the four questions listed in the next paragraph and then answer them (in the comments section of the checkout form). This book cannot be ordered by phone. To order by mail or fax, please include a letter answering these four questions:

1. Have you received the Rig pa'i tsal wang ["empowerment into the dynamic energy of awareness"] from a qualified lineage holder?
2. Name of the lineage holder who gave you the above, the location where you received it, and the date.
3. Have you received the reading transmission of Yeshe Lama or permission to study Yeshe Lama from a qualified lineage holder?
4. Name of the lineage holder who gave you the above, the location where you received it, and the date.

Without the satisfactory completion of all the above four questions, Shambhala is not authorized by the translators to sell this book, nor is Snow Lion authorized to discuss or negotiate this issue with potential customers. If you would like to discuss these requirements, please write to the translators. They can be reached at: sangyekhandro@gmail.com"

That said:

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.ph ... etail&p=97

has the rushens and semzins from the Yeshe Lama and you just need to have direct introduction, on the web, (given almost every webcast) from ChNNR.

There is also a little book, I think available from SS Austria, that has the full instructions for the 21 Semzin.

The Te Yeshe Lama includes Tregchod and Togyal and is normally studied / practiced in a retreat setting. I highly recommend this retreat as it is a very concentrated redaction of the Longchen Nyingthig practice essence by the all knowing, Jigmed Lingpa. I believe that there is a Yeshe lama retreat in Oregon, USA, every Summer.

You might want to write to Sangye Khandro.

Rushen / semzin teachings are also held at various times in the DC, and I believe there was a full outer rushen retreat held in Russia (open to all with transmission) this Summer.

I have taught the outer Rushen / Semzins in Europe,with Oliver Leick, and it went well. Not so complicated - well maybe a little.

:smile:

ob

Hi OB,

Thanks for the lengthy, thoughtful reply. That sounds like a lot of fun, watching ChNN drink and singing songs, haha!

I have heard of the Yeshe Lama text, but I doubt I will get the chance to receive that empowerment even within the next few years. I have received DI from ChNN, but I have a local lama that I follow for my actual practices. He is very traditional and laughs at the thought of people wanting to do advanced practices before ngondro. And I totally respect and value his opinion. He is awesome! So, for now I'm just working on ngondro. It is fun to occasionally read books about this stuff now that some of the previously secret teachings are relatively out in the open. But I think that I am better off dedicating the bulk of my energy to the preliminaries and creating a strong foundation and connection to my lama.

Thanks!
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Re: samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

Postby tomamundsen » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:46 am

heart wrote:
mutsuk wrote:Generally in the Bon tradition there exists only outer and inner Rushen (in the ZZNG only inner Rushen). In Bon, the "secret" Rushen are actually the "training of the three doors" (sgo gsum sbyang ba). If you look at ancient cycles such as the Yangti of Guru Chöwang, there are no "secret " Rushen. So this sure depends on what cycle is concerned. However, in some texts, secret rushen (=training of the three doors) are considered as the preliminaries of Trekchö, whereas outer and inner Rushen are the preliminaries of Thögel. But in actual practice, they are performed one after the other (each with a specific number of days/weeks), and then you go into the main practice.


Yes, that is true, for example in the "Lam Rim Yeshe Nyingpo" (the light of wisdom). But it doesn't really matter what it is called, secret rushan or training in the three doors if they are the same.

/magnus

Lam Rim Yeshe Nyingpo.... interesting! Is this like a Nyingma lamrim text? Similar to Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation for Kagyupas and Tsongkhapa's Lamrim Chenmo for Gelugpas? I found this through Wikipedia, and at first glance it seems that way.
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Re: samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

Postby heart » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:45 am

tomamundsen wrote:
heart wrote:
mutsuk wrote:Generally in the Bon tradition there exists only outer and inner Rushen (in the ZZNG only inner Rushen). In Bon, the "secret" Rushen are actually the "training of the three doors" (sgo gsum sbyang ba). If you look at ancient cycles such as the Yangti of Guru Chöwang, there are no "secret " Rushen. So this sure depends on what cycle is concerned. However, in some texts, secret rushen (=training of the three doors) are considered as the preliminaries of Trekchö, whereas outer and inner Rushen are the preliminaries of Thögel. But in actual practice, they are performed one after the other (each with a specific number of days/weeks), and then you go into the main practice.


Yes, that is true, for example in the "Lam Rim Yeshe Nyingpo" (the light of wisdom). But it doesn't really matter what it is called, secret rushan or training in the three doors if they are the same.

/magnus

Lam Rim Yeshe Nyingpo.... interesting! Is this like a Nyingma lamrim text? Similar to Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation for Kagyupas and Tsongkhapa's Lamrim Chenmo for Gelugpas? I found this through Wikipedia, and at first glance it seems that way.


Well, ordinary lam rim is sutra, this text covers everything including ngondro, development stage, completion stage and semde, longde and mengakde. But it is not very step by step except for the fact that everyone that follow it do ngondro. In Nangchen in Kham were Chokgyur Lingpa is from you could hardly find a single person that haven't done ngondro.

Volume One: ground, preliminaries and Mahayana
Volume Two: ngondro and development stage/ yidam practice
Volume Three: the practices connectd to the second and third empowerments
Volume Four: Trekcho and Togal
Volume Five: fruition, enhancement and clearing hindrances

Volume three and five is not published yet.

/magnus
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- Longchenpa
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Re: samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:51 am

heart wrote: But it doesn't really matter what it is called, secret rushan or training in the three doors if they are the same.

/magnus


Are you referring here to the vajrasana, the 4 hung trainings , and the jung ne dro sum and other mind trainings?
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Re: samsara vs. nirvana == mind vs. nature of mind

Postby heart » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:09 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
heart wrote: But it doesn't really matter what it is called, secret rushan or training in the three doors if they are the same.

/magnus


Are you referring here to the vajrasana, the 4 hung trainings , and the jung ne dro sum and other mind trainings?


Yes, often referred to as secret rushan.

/magnus
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