Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:42 pm
catmoon wrote:Ok, then there should be zero difference between realized masters.
There is zero difference in the substance of their realization.
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catmoon wrote:Ok, then there should be zero difference between realized masters.
Okay, then they should all be in perfect agreement in their teachings.Malcolm wrote:catmoon wrote:Ok, then there should be zero difference between realized masters.
There is zero difference in the substance of their realization.
catmoon wrote:Okay, then they should all be in perfect agreement in their teachings.Malcolm wrote:catmoon wrote:Ok, then there should be zero difference between realized masters.
There is zero difference in the substance of their realization.
Dzogchen masters are, when it comes to discussing Dzogchen.catmoon wrote:Okay, then they should all be in perfect agreement in their teachings.Malcolm wrote:catmoon wrote:Ok, then there should be zero difference between realized masters.
There is zero difference in the substance of their realization.
Okay, then I win, because the endless variation is just what I was originally asserting. Yes?MalaBeads wrote:
Not at all. There is no difference in the realization of masters because what is realized is the nature of mind. This is the same for everyone everywhere.
There is endless variation in the expression of that realization because it is, as Malcolm has said often, a personal experience. I will add that this realization is expressed or manifest differently for everyone because individuals vary tremendously.
All righty. With that kind of agreeent, it must surely be impossible that there would be sects in Dzogchen, since all the teachers are in perfect agreement. It must be nice to enjoy the sort of universal agreement that no other religion in the history of humanity has attained. This would also explain the complete absence of conflict in the Dzogchen threads here.Malcolm wrote:Dzogchen masters are, when it comes to discussing Dzogchen.catmoon wrote:
Okay, then they should all be in perfect agreement in their teachings.
By 'sects' are you referring to lineages? There may be minute differences between the traditions/practices of differentcatmoon wrote:All righty. With that kind of agreeent, it must surely be impossible that there would be sects in Dzogchen, since all the teachers are in perfect agreement. It must be nice to enjoy the sort of universal agreement that no other religion in the history of humanity has attained. This would also explain the complete absence of conflict in the Dzogchen threads here.
Nope, couldn't say it with a straight face.
username wrote:It is wrong to state all Dzogchen masters are united when discussing Dzogchen. ChNN often tells the story of when he was staying with Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche in Nepal and three Dozgchen masters, couple of Khenpos and a tulku, suddenly appeared to debate him in the presence of TUR on why ChNN is wrong to accept Bonpos as genuine Dzogchenpas. He disagreed. They asked for elaboration on the view of the base in Dzogchen and a debate on invalidity of Bonpo Dzogchen. ChNN said, you should know about the basis and there will be no explanation. We disagree and there will be no debate from me on Dzogchen or Bonpos with you. They promptly left.
With the exception that here we don't have Dzogchen masters debating, but students and people who know next to nothing about it.catmoon wrote:All righty. With that kind of agreeent, it must surely be impossible that there would be sects in Dzogchen, since all the teachers are in perfect agreement. It must be nice to enjoy the sort of universal agreement that no other religion in the history of humanity has attained. This would also explain the complete absence of conflict in the Dzogchen threads here.Malcolm wrote:Dzogchen masters are, when it comes to discussing Dzogchen.catmoon wrote:
Okay, then they should all be in perfect agreement in their teachings.
Nope, couldn't say it with a straight face.
There are no sects in Dzogchen per se. There are differences in how this knowledge should be approached, which is what you see being discussed. But there is no room for debate about what Dzogchen is. Of course, most of the people here talking about Dzogchen have little or no facility in Tibetan, and therefore, are quite limited in their scope.catmoon wrote:All righty. With that kind of agreeent, it must surely be impossible that there would be sects in Dzogchen, since all the teachers are in perfect agreement. It must be nice to enjoy the sort of universal agreement that no other religion in the history of humanity has attained. This would also explain the complete absence of conflict in the Dzogchen threads here.Malcolm wrote:Dzogchen masters are, when it comes to discussing Dzogchen.catmoon wrote:
Okay, then they should all be in perfect agreement in their teachings.
Nope, couldn't say it with a straight face.
They claimed to be Dzogchen masters and wanting to purge Dzogchen of Bonpos. They were told to go away once they started debating him by asking him about the view of the basis when he told them to go away. The point is there are people who are claiming to be Dzogchen masters that some accept that do disagree with other genuine Dzogchen masters. That was a valid point that was made and you dismissed. There are still TB Dzogchen masters who publicly do not accept Bonpos Dzogchen. I don't accept them. But that is my opinion.Malcolm wrote:username wrote:It is wrong to state all Dzogchen masters are united when discussing Dzogchen. ChNN often tells the story of when he was staying with Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche in Nepal and three Dozgchen masters, couple of Khenpos and a tulku, suddenly appeared to debate him in the presence of TUR on why ChNN is wrong to accept Bonpos as genuine Dzogchenpas. He disagreed. They asked for elaboration on the view of the base in Dzogchen and a debate on invalidity of Bonpo Dzogchen. ChNN said, you should know about the basis and there will be no explanation. We disagree and there will be no debate from me on Dzogchen or Bonpos with you. They promptly left.
ChNN never said they were Dzogchen masters.
If you are going to tell a story, get the facts straight.
They wanted to question him on the basis of their misunderstanding of a point of history he had explained in one of his books i.e. that Tonpa Shenrab existed before both Shakyamuni and Garab Dorje, and therefore, they concluded he, ChNN was stating that Dzogchen has its origin in Bon. Of course ChNN explained to them to the history of the 12 ancient masters of Dzogchgen beginning with Nangwa Dampa, who are much more ancient than Tonpa Shenrab.
The three, abashed, then requested Dzogchen teachings from ChNN, who replied to the effect he does not teach Dzogchen to people who come to debate with him about.
to which you replied: "Dzogchen masters are, when it comes to discussing Dzogchen."Okay, then they should all be in perfect agreement in their teachings.
Wow, somehow I managed to not ever hear this story. Thanks.Malcolm wrote:username wrote:It is wrong to state all Dzogchen masters are united when discussing Dzogchen. ChNN often tells the story of when he was staying with Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche in Nepal and three Dozgchen masters, couple of Khenpos and a tulku, suddenly appeared to debate him in the presence of TUR on why ChNN is wrong to accept Bonpos as genuine Dzogchenpas. He disagreed. They asked for elaboration on the view of the base in Dzogchen and a debate on invalidity of Bonpo Dzogchen. ChNN said, you should know about the basis and there will be no explanation. We disagree and there will be no debate from me on Dzogchen or Bonpos with you. They promptly left.
ChNN never said they were Dzogchen masters.
If you are going to tell a story, get the facts straight.
They wanted to question him on the basis of their misunderstanding of a point of history he had explained in one of his books i.e. that Tonpa Shenrab existed before both Shakyamuni and Garab Dorje, and therefore, they concluded he, ChNN was stating that Dzogchen has its origin in Bon. Of course ChNN explained to them to the history of the 12 ancient masters of Dzogchgen beginning with Nangwa Dampa, who are much more ancient than Tonpa Shenrab.
The three, abashed, then requested Dzogchen teachings from ChNN, who replied to the effect he does not teach Dzogchen to people who come to debate with him about.
Are there differing opinions on rigpa (or whatever the translation du jour is - maybe I've just answered the question...)?username wrote: We know there are differences of opinion on ngondro, etc. You are wrong on both counts.
We are told rigpa is not a matter of semantic, cognition, concepts etc. but of ineffable experience and realization or knowledge of the ultimate state by the person. There are many opinions by them on how to teach students though.underthetree wrote:Are there differing opinions on rigpa (or whatever the translation du jour is - maybe I've just answered the question...)?username wrote: We know there are differences of opinion on ngondro, etc. You are wrong on both counts.
So everyone is in agreement with regard to the natural state?username wrote:We are told rigpa is not a matter of semantic, cognition, concepts etc. but of ineffable experience and realization or knowledge of the ultimate state by the person. There are many opinions by them on how to teach students though.underthetree wrote:Are there differing opinions on rigpa (or whatever the translation du jour is - maybe I've just answered the question...)?username wrote: We know there are differences of opinion on ngondro, etc. You are wrong on both counts.
What is that you do not accept? Bonpo Dzogchen masters?username wrote:
There are still TB Dzogchen masters who publicly do not accept Bonpos Dzogchen. I don't accept them. But that is my opinion.
Differences of opinion about pedagogy, not differences in opinion about the meaning of Dzogchen -- but you are such a tear to find fault with what I say, you are completely blind to anything other than whatever fictions you spin in your head.We know there are differences of opinion on ngondro, etc. You are wrong on both counts.
username wrote:We are told rigpa is not a matter of semantic, cognition, concepts etc. but of ineffable experience and realization or knowledge of the ultimate state by the person. There are many opinions by them on how to teach students though.underthetree wrote:Are there differing opinions on rigpa (or whatever the translation du jour is - maybe I've just answered the question...)?username wrote: We know there are differences of opinion on ngondro, etc. You are wrong on both counts.
No.username wrote:
They claimed to be Dzogchen masters and wanting to purge Dzogchen of Bonpos.
No.They were told to go away once they started debating him by asking him about the view of the basis when he told them to go away.