Jes Bertelsen?

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby LhodroeRapsal » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:16 am

Ups, i wrote:

Probably the reason is that he does want to impose a belief (which it seems to be for many western Buddhists) - it has to be seen.


I missed an essential word. What I wa saying was:

Probably the reason is that he does NOT want to impose a belief (which it seems to be for many western Buddhists) - it has to be seen.

:)
User avatar
LhodroeRapsal
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:59 pm

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Jikan » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:38 pm

Otsal wrote:What on earth was Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche thinking when he not only authorized Bertelsen to teach Dzogchen, but told him to do so in a way suited to his own culture?


I find both these claims entirely implausible: 1. that Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche in fact authorized Bertelsen to teach Dzogchen, and 2. that the way Bertelsen is carrying on is suited to transmitting Dzogchen to anyone regardless of culture*.

So far we have little evidence in support of the first claim apart from some second-hand affirmations, some of these translated from the Danish. I think this is just inadequate to the claim, although I remain open to the possibility there may be stronger evidence out there proving you right on this. I wonder what Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche's heart-sons might have to say about it?

That said, I agree with you completely when you say...

isn’t it amazing how Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche’s students and sons are instrumental in bringing the Dharma to so many people around the world in such diverse ways?


*caveat emptor: My understanding of Dzogchen is that of a beginner; obviously there may be something important I'm missing here. I have found Tulku Urgyen's published teachings to be a great inspiration and help for me over the years. May the Chokling Tersar thrive in all lands.
Thanks to the help of generous sponsors (most of them from DharmaWheel), I'm doing a Vajra Armor (Dorje Kotrab) self-retreat this summer. May the merit be yours!
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4986
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby LhodroeRapsal » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:13 pm

Jikan wrote:I find both these claims entirely implausible: 1. that Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche in fact authorized Bertelsen to teach Dzogchen, and 2. that the way Bertelsen is carrying on is to transmitting Dzogchen to anyone regardless of culture*.


Ok, that is how you position yourself, and then you cannot of course believe what other secondhand sources say like this:

A close friend of mine felt unsure how Chokyi Nyima, Tulku Urgyen oldest son, would relate to that he also wanted to continue the training from Jes Bertelsen. So my friend asked him in person on a the Dzogchen seminar this year in Denmark. Chokyi Nyimas answer was that it was the same, so he should just continue with the training he was already doing.

But since you find a statement like the above implausible then you could ask Chokyi Nyima or other of his sons you have trust in or ask Erik Pema Kunsang, because from what I heard he was translating when Jes Bertelsen was given this permission. And then let us know.

Sincerely
User avatar
LhodroeRapsal
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:59 pm

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Jikan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:15 pm

LhodroeRapsal wrote:
Jikan wrote:I find both these claims entirely implausible: 1. that Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche in fact authorized Bertelsen to teach Dzogchen, and 2. that the way Bertelsen is carrying on is to transmitting Dzogchen to anyone regardless of culture*.


Ok, that is how you position yourself, and then you cannot of course believe what other secondhand sources say like this:

A close friend of mine felt unsure how Chokyi Nyima, Tulku Urgyen oldest son, would relate to that he also wanted to continue the training from Jes Bertelsen. So my friend asked him in person on a the Dzogchen seminar this year in Denmark. Chokyi Nyimas answer was that it was the same, so he should just continue with the training he was already doing.


Actually, that's a third hand account: from your Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, to your friend, to you, to me (and anyone who is reading this). And yes, I find these kinds of internet he-said-that-he-said-that-he-said discussions to have little credibility. I am not alone in not trusting such discourse on its own. And I don't think this is an unreasonable or uncharitable way for someone to position himself, contrary to the implications of your post.

You will notice that I have not ruled out that Mr Bertelsen's claims may well be wholly authentic, merely that I don't find them particularly plausible in the light of the gossipy nature of the evidence given so far. Perhaps more concrete corroborations will emerge. Or some public statements to the contrary.

Until such time, I will hold my tongue on the topic of Mr Bertelsen.

Meget kærlighed.
Thanks to the help of generous sponsors (most of them from DharmaWheel), I'm doing a Vajra Armor (Dorje Kotrab) self-retreat this summer. May the merit be yours!
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4986
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Rune Lacroix » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:43 pm

LhodroeRapsal wrote:A close friend of mine felt unsure how Chokyi Nyima, Tulku Urgyen oldest son, would relate to that he also wanted to continue the training from Jes Bertelsen. So my friend asked him in person on a the Dzogchen seminar this year in Denmark. Chokyi Nyimas answer was that it was the same, so he should just continue with the training he was already doing.

But since you find a statement like the above implausible then you could ask Chokyi Nyima or other of his sons you have trust in or ask Erik Pema Kunsang, because from what I heard he was translating when Jes Bertelsen was given this permission. And then let us know.
Sincerely


Since this close friend is me it is now "only" second hand information.

I was lucky to ask Chokyi Nyima for advice on relating to Jes Bertelsen and him as teachers at the same time and what he answered was something very close to this:
"You keep on practicing what Jes teach you. He was a student of my father and i trust and know him well. You can come both here and there. The essence of the teaching is the same"

At the same Dzogchen seminar i also had the opportunity to ask Erik Pema Kunsang, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche's translator, about the Jes Bertelsen's teachings. He said:
"Jes Bertelsen has recieved the heart of the dzogchen teachings, and was allowed to teach the essence in his own way. It is dharma, but not buddha-dharma".

The questions were only asked for personal reasons.
Rune Lacroix
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:16 pm

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Jikan » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:53 pm

Thank you for filling us in with a bit more detail.

In this tradition, is it considered acceptable practice to generalize personal advice given from one's teacher to all that teacher's students?
Thanks to the help of generous sponsors (most of them from DharmaWheel), I'm doing a Vajra Armor (Dorje Kotrab) self-retreat this summer. May the merit be yours!
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4986
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Rune Lacroix » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:04 pm

Jikan wrote:In this tradition, is it considered acceptable practice to generalize personal advice given from one's teacher to all that teacher's students?


I don't know. But i don't think so.
Though i personally have perfect trust in Jes Bertelsen as a dzogchen teacher, it would, in my opinion, be interesting with a more general statement on the subject, from someone very close to Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, and not involved with Jes Bertelsen (like i am).
Rune Lacroix
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:16 pm

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby monktastic » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:21 pm

Thanks very much, Rune, for registering here and sharing your experience. I was curious about Jes Bertelsen myself, and having some confirmation that his work is authorized by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche gives me much greater confidence.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
User avatar
monktastic
 
Posts: 249
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:48 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby heart » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:48 am

Rune Lacroix wrote:Since this close friend is me it is now "only" second hand information.

I was lucky to ask Chokyi Nyima for advice on relating to Jes Bertelsen and him as teachers at the same time and what he answered was something very close to this:
"You keep on practicing what Jes teach you. He was a student of my father and i trust and know him well. You can come both here and there. The essence of the teaching is the same"

At the same Dzogchen seminar i also had the opportunity to ask Erik Pema Kunsang, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche's translator, about the Jes Bertelsen's teachings. He said:
"Jes Bertelsen has recieved the heart of the dzogchen teachings, and was allowed to teach the essence in his own way. It is dharma, but not buddha-dharma".

The questions were only asked for personal reasons.


Thanks for sharing Rune. But neither statements does in my eyes support Jes as a fully qualified Dzogchen teacher. Both Erik and Rinpoche seems to support Jes Bertelsen's good intentions in teaching and that must be very encouraging for you and his other students. However, good intentions don't make you a lineage holder of Dzogchen. I think that if you put the question like this; "Is Jes Bertelsen a fully qualified Dzogchen master in the lineage of Tulku Urgyen?" you might have received an other kind of answer. At least this is what I have heard through the grapevine.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Rune Lacroix » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:08 am

heart wrote:Thanks for sharing Rune. But neither statements does in my eyes support Jes as a fully qualified Dzogchen teacher. Both Erik and Rinpoche seems to support Jes Bertelsen's good intentions in teaching and that must be very encouraging for you and his other students. However, good intentions don't make you a lineage holder of Dzogchen. I think that if you put the question like this; "Is Jes Bertelsen a fully qualified Dzogchen master in the lineage of Tulku Urgyen?" you might have received an other kind of answer. At least this is what I have heard through the grapevine.

/magnus


I agree. But at least the answers i received reflects some degree of acceptance and acknowledgement from Rinpoche and Erik.
So, though i still have my personal trust, for the public it still seems to be a open question; Whether Jes is an authorized Dzogchen master in the linage og Tulku Urgyen or not.
Rune Lacroix
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:16 pm

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Jikan » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:03 pm

Rune Lacroix wrote:
Jikan wrote:In this tradition, is it considered acceptable practice to generalize personal advice given from one's teacher to all that teacher's students?


I don't know. But i don't think so.
Though i personally have perfect trust in Jes Bertelsen as a dzogchen teacher, it would, in my opinion, be interesting with a more general statement on the subject, from someone very close to Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, and not involved with Jes Bertelsen (like i am).


I think your position overall is a reasonable one.

To be fair to you and your friends, here's why I asked that particular question. It had to do with the example given before of a teacher giving a particular piece of advice to a student that was taken to mean that such advice should be taken by all. Let me explain through an example:

I was experiencing certain problems in my meditation many years ago. I asked my teacher. She gave me some advice that helped me, but seemed unconventional for the context (this was a Zen center): 1. Go eat, eat, and eat some more. Eat all the foods you like, and eat a lot. Do not skip dessert. 2. Stop drinking this Japanese tea we serve you. 3. Go have some fun. Now, in my case, this was very good medicine, but I am sure you would agree that not everyone who was in the room should take this advice for themselves (some were obese, some were sleepy, and so on).

My point is that we should not assume that if a teacher tells one student to carry on as he or she has been doing, that the teacher is authorizing everyone to do the same. I have even heard some teachers dismiss some students who have poor attitudes or are not suitable at that time to go away and study something else (in the US we say "go take a hike!") or in other instances go to a mental health professional if they are disturbed. This does not mean that psychotherapy is Dharma or that a particular psychotherapist is a lineage holder, but that the person hearing these instructions needed psychiatric help.

Finally, even though I said I would hold my tongue on Bertelsen, I would like to say that it's a wonderful thing he is encouraging people to find out about the teachings of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and the Chokling Tersar. I hope all his students study Tulku Urgyen's writings and biography with great care, get all the instructions and transmissions they need to practice well, and then practice well to attain the fruit of the path in this lifetime. For all our benefit.

:namaste:
Thanks to the help of generous sponsors (most of them from DharmaWheel), I'm doing a Vajra Armor (Dorje Kotrab) self-retreat this summer. May the merit be yours!
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4986
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:52 pm

LhodroeRapsal and Rune, I think you are both students of Bertelsen, so I was wondering if you, or any other students of his reading this, could tell us some more about that?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby heart » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:55 pm

A question for the students of Jes Bertelsen, did Jes practice (from Ngondro and up) a full Dzogchen cycle, like for example the Kunzang Tuktik, from the Chokling Tersar?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:57 pm

heart wrote:A question for the students of Jes Bertelsen, did Jes practice (from Ngondro and up) a full Dzogchen cycle, like for example the Kunzang Tuktik, from the Chokling Tersar?

/magnus



Nope. (Not a student of his, just know that he didn't practice anything like a ngondro).
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11743
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby heart » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:A question for the students of Jes Bertelsen, did Jes practice (from Ngondro and up) a full Dzogchen cycle, like for example the Kunzang Tuktik, from the Chokling Tersar?

/magnus



Nope. (Not a student of his, just know that he didn't practice anything like a ngondro).


Hmm Malcolm, how do you know that? :smile:

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Jikan » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:34 pm

I remember reading Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche's insistence on the practice of ngondro in some of his published writings, but I don't have access to those now. These comments might be relevant to the present conversation.
Thanks to the help of generous sponsors (most of them from DharmaWheel), I'm doing a Vajra Armor (Dorje Kotrab) self-retreat this summer. May the merit be yours!
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4986
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:41 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:A question for the students of Jes Bertelsen, did Jes practice (from Ngondro and up) a full Dzogchen cycle, like for example the Kunzang Tuktik, from the Chokling Tersar?

/magnus



Nope. (Not a student of his, just know that he didn't practice anything like a ngondro).


Hmm Malcolm, how do you know that? :smile:

/magnus



Because that is was I was told by one of his students, and that was also confirmed to me by another direct student of TU's who has there when Bertelsen was visting TU.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11743
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:42 pm

Jikan wrote:I remember reading Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche's insistence on the practice of ngondro in some of his published writings, but I don't have access to those now. These comments might be relevant to the present conversation.



Probably not.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11743
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:44 pm

Jikan wrote:
Finally, even though I said I would hold my tongue on Bertelsen...



Its a fact that TU authorized him to teach Dzogchen.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11743
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:Its a fact that TU authorized him to teach Dzogchen.

That's pretty remarkable. Did TU authorize any other westerners?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

>