On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

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On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby MalaBeads » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:23 pm

http://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/4/2/306

Once you click on the page, you will need to download the PDF.

:smile:
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:23 pm

Dronma wrote:OK. This is your personal interpretation and understanding, which I respect, however I am sorry but I do not agree with it.
Actually it is not my personal opinion and interpretation:
If the gurus words
but enter your heart,

it's as if you've been handed
assurance.

Saraha says:
The world is deceived by lies;

The childish can't perceive
their innermost nature.
Saraha

No tantra, no mantra,
no reflection or recollection -

Hey fool! All this
is the cause of error.

Mind is unstained -
don't taint it with meditation;

you're living in bliss:
don't torment yourself.
Saraha

It isn't born,
it doesn't die,
it has no root or stalk;

"it comes' and "it goes"
do not apply -

but with the guru's teaching,
it enters the heart.
Tilopa

Does any of this stuff sound familiar?

Excerpts from Tantric Treasures: Three Collections of Mystical verse from Buddhist India Roger R. Jackson, Oxford University Press.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby MalaBeads » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:37 pm

One question Greg:

Why are you trying to prove your point in the dzogchen thread by quoting tantric sources? Isn't that like trying to prove the existence of oranges by pointing at apples?

A little confused.
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby heart » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:50 pm

MalaBeads wrote:One question Greg:

Why are you trying to prove your point in the dzogchen thread by quoting tantric sources? Isn't that like trying to prove the existence of oranges by pointing at apples?

A little confused.


In the Sarma tradition they make no distinction between Tantra and Mahamudra, so there is nothing to be confused about.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:58 pm

heart wrote:In the Sarma tradition they make no distinction between Tantra and Mahamudra, so there is nothing to be confused about.

/magnus
Very much so. but let me answer "MalaBeads" from a different perspective: can you point out to me a single dharma that is not born from the essential nature of mind?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby MalaBeads » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:22 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
heart wrote:In the Sarma tradition they make no distinction between Tantra and Mahamudra, so there is nothing to be confused about.

/magnus
Very much so. but let me answer "MalaBeads" from a different perspective: can you point out to me a single dharma that is not born from the essential nature of mind?


No, not at all. Quote away.

Thanks, Magnus.
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby Dronma » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:57 pm

Coming back to the real subject of the OP:
Emotions and passions in the supreme vision of the Dzogchen path are therefore not an object of renunciation as in the monastic or sutra system, nor are they transformed into the corresponding wisdoms through a yogic or tantric method.
They simply manifest for what they are: pure reflections, self-perfected in themselves.
.
.
.
Emotions manifest continually in the mind flow, as do thoughts and feelings. The trainee at first aims to recognize them immediately as they appear. This exercise of recognition is an active application of presence, or mindfulness.
Thus training here has two levels: (1) applying mindfulness and (2) dwelling in instantaneous presence, the state of contemplation.
Applying mindfulness upon rising emotions is a skill which is developed by the daily practice of contemplation: as soon as the practitioner notices an emotion, whether rising or fully manifest, he/she observes it without distraction and without interfering in any way with it. Subsequently he/she observes how thoughts, feelings or emotions dissolve by themselves, leaving a gap of stillness in the mind.
This is what is called training in relaxed presence.
By so doing, instead of being led by the emotion into action, the practitioner experiences something new: he/she sees the emotion for what it really is, a simple motion of the mind, a manifestation of its energy. Devoid of all habitual features, it proves to be neutral per se, and while perceiving it, the practitioner can clearly see that that there is no direct, compelling link to act it out.
Instead of pushing one to do something—thus creating karma—it will disintegrate, dissolving in the natural flow of mind activity. In the language of the Dzogchen texts, it is said that the thought/emotion “self-liberates”.
This particular approach or method is meant for fresh practitioners or trainees, as it involves something to do, something to apply.
More expert practitioners are adept in the Dzogchen state of contemplation, called in Tibetan rigpa or instantaneous presence. That is, the capacity to dwell inside one’s real nature.
This is a capacity acquired through experience and, once acquired and enlarged through the practice of contemplation, it becomes effortless, totally spontaneous and devoid of intentionality. When someone has reached a stage of training in which one can easily dwell in the instantaneous presence of rigpa, the rising emotion manifests immediately as mental energy pure and simple, devoid of whatsoever outlet into action and karmic production. So it “self-liberates” instantly into the space of the intrinsically free nature of mind.

Thank you, MalaBeads, for bringing this text to our attention! :namaste:
Last edited by Dronma on Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby MalaBeads » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:09 am

Dronma wrote:Coming back to the real subject of the OP:

<<Emotions and passions in the supreme vision of the Dzogchen path are therefore not an object of renunciation as in the monastic or sutra system, nor are they transformed into the corresponding wisdoms through a yogic or tantric method.
They simply manifest for what they are: pure reflections, self-perfected in themselves.
.
.
.
Emotions manifest continually in the mind flow, as do thoughts and feelings. The trainee at first aims to recognize them immediately as they appear. This exercise of recognition is an active application of presence, or mindfulness.
Thus training here has two levels: (1) applying mindfulness and (2) dwelling in instantaneous presence, the state of contemplation.
Applying mindfulness upon rising emotions is a skill which is developed by the daily practice of contemplation: as soon as the practitioner notices an emotion, whether rising or fully manifest, he/she observes it without distraction and without interfering in any way with it. Subsequently he/she observes how thoughts, feelings or emotions dissolve by themselves, leaving a gap of stillness in the mind.
This is what is called training in relaxed presence.
By so doing, instead of being led by the emotion into action, the practitioner experiences something new: he/she sees the emotion for what it really is, a simple motion of the mind, a manifestation of its energy. Devoid of all habitual features, it proves to be neutral per se, and while perceiving it, the practitioner can clearly see that that there is no direct, compelling link to act it out.
Instead of pushing one to do something—thus creating karma—it will disintegrate, dissolving in the natural flow of mind activity. In the language of the Dzogchen texts, it is said that the thought/emotion “self-liberates”.
This particular approach or method is meant for fresh practitioners or trainees, as it involves something to do, something to apply.
More expert practitioners are adept in the Dzogchen state of contemplation, called in Tibetan rigpa or instantaneous presence. That is, the capacity to dwell inside one’s real nature.
This is a capacity acquired through experience and, once acquired and enlarged through the practice of contemplation, it becomes effortless, totally spontaneous and devoid of intentionality. When someone has reached a stage of training in which one can easily dwell in the instantaneous presence of rigpa, the rising emotion manifests immediately as mental energy pure and simple, devoid of whatsoever outlet into action and karmic production. So it “self-liberates” instantly into the space of the intrinsically free nature of mind. >>



I thought it might be helpful here, Dronma.

:namaste:
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby Dronma » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:19 am

MalaBeads wrote:I thought it might be helpful here, Dronma.

:namaste:


Yes, it is indeed very helpful. :smile:

I am always surprised though how often people, we are losing focus on the moon, and we keep staring at the finger.... :shrug:
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby MalaBeads » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:28 am

Dronma wrote:I am always surprised though how often people, we are losing focus on the moon, and we keep staring at the finger.... :shrug:


:shrug:

It just seems to be what people do, always grasping after something. Me too, I am not completely free of doing this.

As Rinpoche says, we do our best.

:smile:
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby Dronma » Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:20 am

MalaBeads wrote: :shrug:

It just seems to be what people do, always grasping after something. Me too, I am not completely free of doing this.

As Rinpoche says, we do our best.

:smile:


Yes, true.
We grasp after something, we lose presence, and while we are distracted in our illusory states, we produce destructive emotions for ourselves and others.
It is how the unending circle of suffering keeps turning round and round.....

PS. I am not free either. :tongue:
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby mandala » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:47 am

I'm disappointed that, thus far, there is zero mention in this thread of how one goes about "dealing with destruction emotions".

:|
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby MalaBeads » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:57 am

mandala wrote:I'm disappointed that, thus far, there is zero mention in this thread of how one goes about "dealing with destruction emotions".

:|


Actually, Mandala, he describes "the how" very well I think. The application of mindfulness and the repeated training in training in relaxed presence. These two activities in combination with the presence of the nature of mind, will very effectively dissolve all negative emotions.

It's sounds almost too simple and in a way, it is. But it is not easy.

Not much else can actually be said because there is not much else to it. But that "not much" is actually a lot. Sorry to sound so paradoxical but thats the way I understand it.

Btw, mindfulness practice is extremely important. Its not a mistake that the mindfulness teachers have done very well with dzogchen.

Ciao.
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:31 pm

mandala wrote:I'm disappointed that, thus far, there is zero mention in this thread of how one goes about "dealing with destruction emotions".

:|
The article deals with it in the following way: it recommends you practice Dzogchen to deal with the destructive emotions.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby kirtu » Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:52 pm

mandala wrote:I'm disappointed that, thus far, there is zero mention in this thread of how one goes about "dealing with destruction emotions".

:|


Some of the response between Dronma and MalaBeads addresses it.

But this is the core:
Applying mindfulness upon rising emotions is a skill which is developed by the daily practice of contemplation: as soon as the practitioner notices an emotion, whether rising or fully manifest, he/she observes it without distraction and without interfering in any way with it. Subsequently he/she observes how thoughts, feelings or emotions dissolve by themselves, leaving a gap of stillness in the mind. This is what is called training in relaxed presence. By so doing, instead of being led by the emotion into action, the practitioner experiences something new: he/she sees the emotion for what it really is, a simple motion of the mind, a manifestation of its energy. Devoid of all habitual features, it proves to be neutral per se, and while perceiving it, the practitioner can clearly see that that there is no direct, compelling link to act it out.


So this is one of the points that HH Trulshik Rinpoche made in a Rigpa teaching in NYC in 1999 (or so). The bolds and underlines are mine.

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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby Dronma » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:45 pm

Well said by all.
Costantino Albini gives two methods for dealing with destructive emotions: 1) One for fresh practitioners or trainees, and 2) another one for more expert practitioners who are adept in the Dzogchen state of contemplation (and who probably, they are already aware of it through their own experience).

I have noticed again and again that most people, we expect from teachers to give us complicated methods and advanced techniques for resolving our issues.
However, as the years passing by, I understand more and more that the truth is simple. More simple than I have ever imagined.
And as MalaBeads already mentioned, though it sounds too simple, in fact it is not easy!
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby LastLegend » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:34 am

kirtu wrote:
mandala wrote:I'm disappointed that, thus far, there is zero mention in this thread of how one goes about "dealing with destruction emotions".

:|


Some of the response between Dronma and MalaBeads addresses it.

But this is the core:
Applying mindfulness upon rising emotions is a skill which is developed by the daily practice of contemplation: as soon as the practitioner notices an emotion, whether rising or fully manifest, he/she observes it without distraction and without interfering in any way with it. Subsequently he/she observes how thoughts, feelings or emotions dissolve by themselves, leaving a gap of stillness in the mind. This is what is called training in relaxed presence. By so doing, instead of being led by the emotion into action, the practitioner experiences something new: he/she sees the emotion for what it really is, a simple motion of the mind, a manifestation of its energy. Devoid of all habitual features, it proves to be neutral per se, and while perceiving it, the practitioner can clearly see that that there is no direct, compelling link to act it out.


So this is one of the points that HH Trulshik Rinpoche made in a Rigpa teaching in NYC in 1999 (or so). The bolds and underlines are mine.

Kirt


Master Thich Thanh Tu said, "use the light to inward." How is that different from what described there?

Here is a link and in Vietnamese, I can't find a translation for it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Td-6vafLCg
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby mandala » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:00 pm

Yes, I did notice the attached article.

Maybe i missed something though - it seemed to point at mindfulness to observe (and not react to) disturbing emotions - how, exactly, is this a specifically dzogchen practice?
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby MalaBeads » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:33 pm

mandala wrote:Yes, I did notice the attached article.

Maybe i missed something though - it seemed to point at mindfulness to observe (and not react to) disturbing emotions - how, exactly, is this a specifically dzogchen practice?


It's a good question.

My understanding is when you use mindfulness in the presence of the nature of mind (which has been pointed out to you by a qualified dzogchen teacher) then it becomes what Urgyen Tulku called "extraordinary shamata and vipashyana". The key is using mindfulness in conjunction with resting in the nature of mind.

Urgyen Tulku wrote a bit about "extraordinary mindfulness" in As It Is, Volume 2.

Just how i understand it. Always better to ask a qualified dzogchen teacher these things.

:smile:
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Re: On Dealing with Destructive Emotions

Postby Sönam » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:22 pm

mandala wrote:Yes, I did notice the attached article.

Maybe i missed something though - it seemed to point at mindfulness to observe (and not react to) disturbing emotions - how, exactly, is this a specifically dzogchen practice?


No emotions are disturbing, so just relax and stay in your own nature. Emotions are equal in being unborn and not existing anywhere since they have arisen from the unborn state, are dwelling in that state, and cease in it.

"One has to confirm that the appearances are delusions of the mind, and the mind which grasps the appearances is emptiness, like space. ... Space is changeless. ... The meaning of that changelessness is peace and nirvana from primordial time, and it is the nature of Samantabhadra."
- Longchen Rabjam - Shingta Chenpo -

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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