Completion of the path of Tögal

tingdzin
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby tingdzin » Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:05 pm

I met this couple when they were first out of retreat and touring, and it was clear to me that they were genuine practitioners with good and gentle hearts, and had some very useful things to say about practice. Since that time, however, I have heard that they have run into obstacle after obstacle in their attempt to spread these teachings. This may be an effect of samaya problems. I believe that they also lacked some skillful means in their presentation, not only mixing Dzogchen lineage instruction with a set of teachings they developed themselves, but also in putting top secret stuff out there for everybody and their grandmothers. As I result of the latter, for example, I heard of one completely self-deluded woman with no Dzogchen background who, after seeing their artisticrenderings of the visions, claimed she had seen such things in her meditation for years. Doubtless she will set herself up as a Dzogchen teacher one of these days. I had tried to warn them about things like this, but they didn't seem to believe that people interested in spiritual development could also be twisted and manipulative.

There are good reasons for all the strictures surrounding Dzogchen (and tantra).

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Grigoris
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Grigoris » Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:16 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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heart
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby heart » Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:30 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

MaitriYNOD
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby MaitriYNOD » Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:48 am

I don't recall ever reading that diatribes against another's samaya do anything to protect one's own...
I am a lustful, angry dullard with no power of realization. Do not put anything I say into practice without first confirming it with a qualified teacher.

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Grigoris
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Grigoris » Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:06 am

Whilst disparaging ones vajra siblings is also a breach of samaya one must look at the issue in its totality.

If you were Tibetan in Tibet (for example), you would have a well defined and indepth knowledge of what constitutes samaya breakage and what does not. You would have learnt these details directly from your guru. You would be aware of the consequences of samaya breakages and (more than likely) would take these consequences seriously (and not write them off as "antiquated and irrelevant superstitious nonsense").

Here at Dharma Wheel (for example) there are many practitioners that have no direct contact with a live guru. You have practitioners that have no idea about the seriousness of samaya breakages: how they harm the practitioner, the teacher and the teachings themselves. People brought up to believe in a materialist/nihilist view that does not even consider karma as valid or rational, let alone concepts like "vajra hell".

So when the "Olds" come along and try to sell their experiences to an unsuspecting public what would be better? To let them weave their tale and draw people into their mire? Or maybe it is better to intelligently and rationally point out a few facts, having the welfare of other practitioners in mind, so that people do not commit the same mistakes? How exactly do you believe that people that have no direct contact with a guru should learn about samaya? :shrug:

Let us also not forget that when the rules around samaya were formulated there was no such thing as the internet. Somebody spreading information about practices/experiences would have been limited as to who (and how many people) the information was shared with. It would have been more than likely that they would have come quickly into contact with other practitioners who would have told them to keep their mouths shut. It would be likely that they would not have found as many ignorant and wide eyed takers to indulge their statments to and thus "pollute" their minds with their ideas..
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

oldbob
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby oldbob » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:11 pm


CrawfordHollow
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby CrawfordHollow » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:19 pm

Although there may not be any specific samayas for dzogchen per se, Namkahi Norbu Rinpoche himself emphasizes how important it is to protect the transmition by not talking about secret teachings. He also urges his sangha not to fight amognst themselves, saying that it creates problems not only for the sangha, but for the teacher. So ChNN does seem to think that some of the samayas are important to live by, even if he doesn't call it by name. He often tells the story of his trip to Kailash where people were discussing notes on togal after he had told them not to talk about this teaching. He says that talking about these things or even hearing about them before you are ready can ruin the whole path for you. There are some things that he and most other lamas think should be kept secret, and togal certainly tops the list.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:25 pm

Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Bhusuku » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:23 pm


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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Inge » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:48 pm


oldbob
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby oldbob » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:12 am


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Salomon
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Salomon » Sun May 05, 2013 6:59 pm


Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun May 05, 2013 8:17 pm


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Salomon
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Salomon » Sun May 05, 2013 8:29 pm


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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Salomon » Sun May 05, 2013 8:31 pm


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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun May 05, 2013 9:22 pm


CrawfordHollow
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby CrawfordHollow » Sun May 05, 2013 9:51 pm

The danger is not that the practice will destroy you or make you go crazy, the danger is that it won't work because you are basing your practice on delusion and fantasy and not on concrete knowledge and realization. We have seen many teachers in our time who embody the realization of dzogchen perfectly: Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse, and Choegyal Namkahi Norbu to name a few.

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Salomon
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Salomon » Sun May 05, 2013 10:05 pm


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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Salomon » Sun May 05, 2013 10:09 pm


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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun May 05, 2013 11:30 pm

Well, IMO, there's no way to actually know until we accomplish total realization. It seems obvious to me that conceptual thought has serious limitations. But until that point of total realization, we can hear the teachings, see the arguments they present to support their assertions about rainbow body, and decide if they're compelling. I have done so and I found them compelling. But as I said before, YMMV. It's all good either way.


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