Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Lhasa » Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:13 am

oldbob, you are giving away all the secrets, lol :applause:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:04 am

T. Chokyi wrote:
oldbob wrote:In the context of the astounding, luminous and vast collection of sacred Dharma Teachings given by the Dzogchen Master ChNNR, still some of his students do not show kindness to those without means.

Please turn to: "Facts on the Ground."

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=11387&p=154276#p154276

ob



Thats why it is important to show kindness to those without means,
by our prayers, and financial help, when we can. This is why I
made this appeal for Jeremy on Dharmawheel, he wants to meet CHNNR this summer
in 2013 in person and do summer retreat in Conway MA. he is a member of Tsegyalgar East:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=12011#p155802

Thankyou!


:namaste:

Respectful greetings to all who hold ChNNR and the Dzogchen Community in their hearts.

It should be noted that the Yellow Gakyil (the money folks) of Tseygyalgar East, as of last year, in small and hard to find print, advertized that anyone who couldn't afford what was being charged, could contact them to work something out.

http://tsegyalgar.org/localcenters/tseg ... istration/

This year, the print is so small that you can't even see it. I am told that anyone who cannot afford the charges, as listed, can still directly contact the Yellow Gakyil at:

Vern Harrington at vern@thayerstreetassociates.com
John La France (Treasurer) at juanlafrance@yahoo.com
Alex Dagett at alex.daggett@printmgmtinc.com>
yellowgakyil@tsegyalgar.org

I am told that this year they will also have a viable work study program - so you can ask about that too.

Vajra shame on any Gakyil folks who voted not to have a public announcement stating financial help availability.

What to do?

As the founder of The Dzogchen Community in America I invite anyone who is interested in reinventing the DCA in a social form that more closely reflects the heart of the the matter, to send a private message.

If there is enough interest, I will raise the issue with Rinpoche. For those who were not aware of these things, I sent the first invitation to Rinpoche, sent the tickets, did the interface with Mr. Anderson's Gurdjieff group, administered the 501C3 and Mass. State registration and was on the first Yellow Gakyil, more than 30 years ago. I have skin in the game. The well-being of the DCA matters to me.

For the DCA to only have only 450 members after 30 years in America, is a reflection of a flawed business model. 350 attended the last retreat, down from 650 the previous retreat.

The key point is that most people cannot afford a $300 retreat. When you add in hotels and travel, Jeremy's $1000 budget sounds low, even with the new first timer's discounts. There has to be a better way.

The free webcasts are wonderful, but for most people it is also very important to be in the presence of the Master.

ChNNr is a perfect Dzogchen Master. The ancient and effective Dzogchen tradition he embodies, is also perfect.

The social forms imposed on the teachings by those advising ChNNR, are flawed and do not function very well. Any success of the DCA has been in spite of these forms and not because of them.

Without kindness in the social forms, normal people take one look at the DCA and run the other way. I think that doing our best can be done better.

The Dzogchen Community in America needs to be reinvented in social and financial forms that more closely reflect the heart of the matter, and allow more open access to Rinpoche and his bountiful Teachings.

If you agree with these thoughts, please communicate your feelings with ChNNR directly. If you want to collaborate to work out a new modal, please PM me.

Maybe it might be possible for there to be a second, actual cost, and or/ sponsored retreat for all of those who cannot afford to attend the fixed price retreat. Then more people can attend.

The key point is that it might be possible to re-frame the financial goal of a second retreat to be the meeting of actual expenses, rather than the raising of maximum funds to contribute to the yearly operating costs of the DCA. These can be met by membership dues.

All this would depend on ChNNR's collaboration and blessings. Maybe the second retreat could be called, "The Free Retreat of the International Dzogchen Community in America."

oldbob

:heart:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby MalaBeads » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:44 am

Oldbob,

This is a tough one. I have no answers, only thoughts. And probably not even such useful thoughts.

You said quite a few things here - and I don't disagree, there has to be a better way. But I wonder if there is one.

So many things have changed since i attended my first retreat with Rinpoche in 1986. For starters, I was much younger and could happily sleep outside on the ground without a tent in someone's orchard during the retreat. And did. With much happiness. My old body couldn't do that today, so i need a bed, a room, a roof. Costs $.

I feel you said something significant when you mentioned "the people advising Rinpoche" and "flawed business model". Here is where my thoughts get tangled up. When Dharma becomes a "business", especially in America, what you end up with is what you currently have. ChNNR's American sangha reflects the American character. This is national karma, for lack of a better way to put it. In an email recently, a Dharma friend of mine mentioned "institutional generosity". Some places have it, some don't. I used to think this kind of attitude came from the top on down. Now I'm not so sure. As i said, this is where my thoughts are tangled.

This may just be a phase. I've never been a business person, so I'm not sure how businesses grow. I do know that business leaders, the successful ones, are not motivated by $, but by something else. And many of them fail before they succeed. I'm not sure a good "business model" and Dharma are mutually compatible. But i don't know, I've never been a business person.
Mostly I am responding because i too wish there was a better way to establish Dharma in America. But then, America does not want to be poor. For us, its a sign of failure. In other parts of the world, its simply the way things are.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby monktastic » Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:11 pm

On the webcast site, should the video player be showing anything right now? I know the webcast hasn't started yet, but if I hit play, it just stops, with no feed. Want to make sure my browser is set up right, since I haven't used this computer before.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Lhasa » Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:20 pm

Up at the top of the page there is an audio link, click that. I have no video feed either and there may not be one. But the audio is working.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby monktastic » Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:30 pm

Lhasa wrote:Up at the top of the page there is an audio link, click that. I have no video feed either and there may not be one. But the audio is working.

:namaste: Thank you.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby T. Chokyi » Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:48 pm

monktastic wrote:On the webcast site, should the video player be showing anything right now? I know the webcast hasn't started yet, but if I hit play, it just stops, with no feed. Want to make sure my browser is set up right, since I haven't used this computer before.


Dear Monktastic
Don't worry if you are a member and you don't see the video, that is because there was no video, the reason being, connection difficulties where they are streaming from, so members are listening to the audio without video and there was an email letting practitioners know that the audio connection might also cut in and out some etc... Just so you know there probably isn't a problem with the computer you have not used before.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:24 am

:namaste:

Checked today with the video team and there definitely will not be any video from the Margarita retreat. The fastest up-link speed is 100k and they need at least 250K for a video signal to go out.

There has got to be a better way. Maybe no more retreats in Margarita? The security issues affect everyone.

What could possibly be worth taking that risk? Maybe it is time to move the 20 full-timers who are stranded here to Tenarife.

The Vimala and Agar tranquilizer pills are selling very well in the Gar store. The video feed is the least of our worries.

Here is a picture of me at Tashigar Norte.

http://www.melih.com/wp-content/uploads ... tridge.jpg

Here is the security appraisal from the US Dept of State - Travel advisory page for Venezuela.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_t ... _1059.html

THREATS TO SAFETY AND SECURITY: Violent crime in Venezuela is pervasive, both in the capital, Caracas, and in the interior. The country’s overall per capita murder rate is cited as one of the top five in the world. According to the non-governmental organization , Venezuelan Violence Observatory (VVO), 2011 was the most “violent in Venezuela’s history.” According to its data, there were 19,336 homicides in 2011, up from 13,080 murders in 2010, an increase of almost 30%. The Venezuelan National Counter Kidnapping Commission was created in 2006, and since then, official statistics have shown alarming increases in reported kidnappings throughout the country. According to the governmental Cuerpo de Investigaciones Científicas, Penales, y Criminalísticas (CICPC) statistics, 1,150 individuals were kidnapped in Venezuela during 2011, with reported kidnapping incidents increasing 29% over 2010. However, surveys show that the overwhelming majority of kidnappings and other major crimes are not reported to the police. Police sources indicate that as many as 80% of kidnappings go unreported, meaning that the official figure of 1,150 kidnappings in 2011 is lower than actual numbers. Armed robberies take place throughout Caracas and other cities, including in areas generally presumed safe and frequented by tourists. Well-armed criminal gangs operate widely, often setting up fake police checkpoints. Only a very small percentage of crimes result in trials and convictions. The VVO estimates that less than 10% of homicides result in prosecutions. It attributes this impunity to be one of the major factors for the increase in crime.

Travel to and from Maiquetía Airport, the international airport serving Caracas, can be dangerous, and corruption at the airport itself is rampant. Both arriving and departing travelers, including foreigners, have been victims of personal property theft and muggings in the airport. The Embassy has received multiple, credible reports that individuals wearing what appear to be official uniforms or other credentials are involved in facilitating or perpetrating these crimes. For this reason, U.S. citizen travelers should be wary of all strangers, even those in official uniform or carrying official identification, and should not pack valuable items or documents in checked luggage. Valuable documents and personal items should be kept in carry-on luggage; numerous travelers have reported valuable gifts and other items being stolen from their checked luggage, especially around the holiday season. The Embassy has also received multiple, credible reports of victims of “express kidnappings” occurring at the door of the airport, in which individuals are kidnapped and taken to make purchases or to withdraw as much money as possible from ATMs, often at gunpoint. Furthermore, there are known drug trafficking groups working from the airport. Travelers should not accept packages from anyone and should keep their luggage with them at all times.

The Embassy also has received reports of uniformed airport officials attempting to extort money from travelers, including U.S. citizens, as they go through the normal check-in and boarding process for departing flights. Other reports from U.S. citizens and U.S. government officials state that uniformed individuals have approached travelers immediately upon entering the terminal when exiting Venezuela through Maiquetia Airport. These uniformed individuals reportedly may ask travelers where they are traveling and then escort them to a separate area to inspect their bags for illegal drugs or money. In certain cases U.S. citizens have reported that they were forced to sign documents in Spanish that they did not understand. Travelers should not sign documents that they do not understand, but if they feel they must, they should sign “I do not understand this document” or “I cannot read the above statement” as part of their signature.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you agree with me that the risk is not worth the benefit, (compared to moving everyone to Tenerife), please send your feelings to Rinpoche.

As to the Tseygyalgar discount for poor people and work study issue,

http://tsegyalgar.org/localcenters/tseg ... hchoegya2/

Here Is their, hot off the press, latest price schedule. Please note that it now includes an approach to the the Yellow Gakyil for poor people, and work study.

I still think that the social forms and the business structures of the DCA are not ideal, and my offer to explore the reinvention of the DCA stands. If anyone is interested to collaborate, please PM me.

The key point is that an alternative, second track, more open social form, and lower cost business structure, would allow many more people to get the benefit of Rinpoche's precious Teachings.

Please say your prayers for the Margarita crew. :meditate:

oldbob
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby spyderix » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:18 am

Oldbob Rinpoche always gives advice and asks to collaborate and he shows it by himself, I don't think it is good to ask him for more where everything was done already, rest is our presence and working with circumstance, doing our best.

If you look at things as they are now Dzogchen Community is one and only to provide connection to such a master and such a teachings at this rate at home and free of charge asking only for donations and yet it has also its well managed business.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Andrew108 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:41 am

In Dzogchen it's important not to be passive. So if you need money for the teachings then go out and earn it. O.k so if you can't earn it then just go to the teachings without money. Just go and make receiving the teachings your only objective. You can get the teachings for free that is guaranteed but a person needs to be active. When you get the transmission you have to be active. When you sing Song of Vajra you have to be active. When you study Dzogchen Semde you have to be active. When you relax in your natural state you also have to be active. Rinpoche dislikes passivity because it cuts you off from the transmission. I know there are very kind people in the Dzogchen Community but they need to be approached in a way so that they can see a person is actively seeking the teachings and then they will do everything to help. There have been times when I thought about going to a retreat to 'collect' some new information. When I looked at my motivation I could see that this was also a type of passivity. Becoming a collector of various teachings and then not realizing their meaning is also a kind a passivity. Dharma communities get their money from this type of thing. You go above and beyond this when you actively search out the teachings and actively put them into practice with the intention of benefiting self and others. I guarantee that someone with this attitude, who would do anything to get the teachings, will definitely get them even if they haven't got 1 cent. So passivity is useless in the old and the new.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby spyderix » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:03 pm

Yes and this matter that oldbob talks about is about being active towards others not only towards master and teaching. When you look at Masters lectures you will see him stressing that this is DC weak point so he asks and asks "please collaborate" . I have in my experience unnecessary situations that could be resolved easily by other person. I often asked why you didn't do anything and it is as oldbob told. We have to work towards evolution.

You know we really can and should help each other. (Free of charge of course)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Jikan » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:50 pm

I would love to visit Venezuela. Particularly Merida and environs (Dzogchen Community is active there too...)
Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...

viewtopic.php?f=114&t=13727
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Jikan » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:05 pm

note from the moderator:

I've split some of the posts from this thread on the topic of siting and planning a center in the US here:

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=12079&start=0

thanks
Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...

viewtopic.php?f=114&t=13727
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:15 pm

spyderix wrote:Oldbob Rinpoche always gives advice and asks to collaborate and he shows it by himself, I don't think it is good to ask him for more where everything was done already, rest is our presence and working with circumstance, doing our best.

If you look at things as they are now Dzogchen Community is one and only to provide connection to such a master and such a teachings at this rate at home and free of charge asking only for donations and yet it has also its well managed business.


:good: and everything you say is true. Still ---

You have a prefect Master and perfect Teachings and ---

105 people come to take Teachings when he makes his once a year visit to Venezuela, (a country of 30.000,000 people), after he has taught there for 10 years ---

450 people are members in the USA, (a country of 314,000,000), and 350 people attended his last retreat, after he has taught there for 30 years ---

4000 people follow the Dzogchen Community around the world (of a population of 7,000,000,000), after he has been teaching around the world for 40 years.

Dzogchen, as taught by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, is a short path, path leading to enlightenment in one lifetime.

The human condition is the human condition.

Everyone has capacity to understand and practice these Teachings.

So what is wrong with this picture?

:heart:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Andrew108 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:23 pm

Shows how rare the teachings are and how few people have a connection. Then it shows that the general condition of people in the world is one of passivity.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:55 pm

Andrew108 wrote:Shows how rare the teachings are and how few people have a connection. Then it shows that the general condition of people in the world is one of passivity.



Sure, that is one way to frame the issues. Another, is that the individuals whom Rinpoche has trusted for advice, have set up a social hierarchy and business structure, that most people find unworkable.

People do what is useful and helpful.

For most people who have come into contact with the Dzogchen Community, this means not being part of the social hierarchy or business structure of the Dzogchen community. Most people take one look at he DC and run away, in spite of ChNNR being a perfect Teacher, and his Teachings being a genuine short path to enlightenment.

Changes in the social forms and business structure would allow more people to get the benefit of these precious teachings.

It is respectfully suggested that a second, low cost, easy access, practice track be created in parallel with what exists already.

Doing our best can be done better.

:heart:
Last edited by oldbob on Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Andrew108 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:01 pm

Are the membership rates the same in all the gars? The reason I ask is that Merigar has a reduced fee for poor students that is 50 euros a year with big discounts on retreats. Plus when I was at Merigar students were camping for free. Perhaps it is different in the U.S and simply what is needed is to follow the Merigar example?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dan Dorje » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:22 pm

Even the reduced membership can be too much in some countries, like Romania, where the medium salary is 400 e ... :anjali:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:31 pm

Andrew108 wrote:Are the membership rates the same in all the gars? The reason I ask is that Merigar has a reduced fee for poor students that is 50 euros a year with big discounts on retreats. Plus when I was at Merigar students were camping for free. Perhaps it is different in the U.S and simply what is needed is to follow the Merigar example?




Your lips to God (or a Buddhist version thereof). But even those 50% discounts are not workable for many people.

People in Moldova (look it up) make $200 per month. Yes, Rinpoche has followers in Moldova.

http://www.unitedplanet.org/blog/2011/0 ... t-nations/

They can sell the gold in their teeth, and I am sure some do, but there are not a whole lot of options to be able to go to Merigar, or to buy books / DVDs, or to participate in SMS.

One poor boy, who hitch hiked from Poland to Merigar, to go to a retreat, was sent home because that year they had no work study, and he had no money to pay for the retreat.

For Rinpoche, working with circumstances has meant going under the advice of the Westerners he has trusted to set up the DC social forms and business structure. This has not been ideal for the DC, or for the poor who would really like to attend retreats, buy the books and participate in SMS. The open web-casts certainly are a step in the right direction, but just create unreachable expectations in the poor, who would like to also be members, go to retreats, buy the books and DVDs and participate in the SMS. Most normal people take one look at this and run away.

Doing our best can be done better.

:heart:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby MalaBeads » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:58 pm

Lets talk about collaboration a bit. What is collaboration?

From a practice perspective, it is two or more samsaric beings entangling their samsaric conditions in some sort of enterprise. ChNN may be a perfect teacher with a perfect teaching but none of us students are. We are samsaric beings and any kind of collaboration involves entangling out samsaric conditions with each other. That's my perspective anyway.

If people are are running away from DC, it may be because ChNN's teaching asks them to take responsibility for their conditions and work with others at the same not holding out false and fabricated promises like other teachers have been known to do.

Dzogchen may be simple but it is not easy.

BTW, I think it is unconscionable that a person could have come all the way from Molodovia only to be turned away for lack of funds. In my very unofficial and perhaps not so humble opinion, Merigar owes that fellow a retreat, including transportation. It may be no way to run a business, but it is institutionally meritorious, not to mention generous and good dharma as well.

Anyway, I'm am running off my mouth a bit too much here.
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