Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby heart » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:21 pm

Norwegian wrote:http://www.shangshungpublications.org/2011/01/the-necklace-of-zi/

"The Necklace of Zi (gZi yi phreng ba) is the revised and extended text of a lecture given by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu in 1975 to the annual meeting of young Tibetans in Switzerland. Some years later, The Necklace of Zi was published in Dharamsala in both Tibetan and English, and immediately provoked great interest for a completely new approach to the history and culture of Tibet.

With remarkable authority, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu emphasized the originality and specificity of his people’s culture. Citing ancient texts but also using illuminating examples from his education in Tibet, he refuted the almost universally accepted theory which reduced Tibetan civilisation to a Himalayan appendage of Indian culture. For that prior theory, pre-Buddhist Tibet did not even possess its own form of writing.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu traces back the emergence of his country’s culture nearly 4,000 years, and identifies the original Tibetan system of writing in the ancient mar (smar) alphabet, from which the present cursive characters (dbu med) will have evolved. Besides the analysis of the Tibetan history and language, and a short chronicle of the pre-Buddhist Bon, this text is dealing in a simple but very meaningful way with the crucial topic of the harmonious union of Dharma and politics.
"

"So important did his Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama consider the contribution Namkhai Norbu has to make to a wider understanding of Tibetan culture, that at their last meeting he gave Namkhai Norbu a golden pen, urging him to write as much as possible."


I thought it was a great book when I read it many years ago.

/magnus
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Pero » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:40 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
That must have been quite an interesting discussion, all things considered.

/magnus



The way CHNN explains it, it was not so interesting for him.


Yes, I also heard it several times, he don't sound to amused. But knowing Khenpo Choga a little, well he is not stupid and quite unusual. Did you ever meet him?

/magnus

My vajra brothers from Slovenia told me that he visited Slovenia once over a decade ago. It was interesting. :rolling:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:42 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
That must have been quite an interesting discussion, all things considered.

/magnus



The way CHNN explains it, it was not so interesting for him.


Yes, I also heard it several times, he don't sound to amused. But knowing Khenpo Choga a little, well he is not stupid and quite unusual. Did you ever meet him?

/magnus


No, I never met him.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby heart » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:01 pm

Pero wrote:My vajra brothers from Slovenia told me that he visited Slovenia once over a decade ago. It was interesting. :rolling:


I believe you. :smile:

/magnus
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby heart » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Yes, I also heard it several times, he don't sound to amused. But knowing Khenpo Choga a little, well he is not stupid and quite unusual. Did you ever meet him?

/magnus


No, I never met him.


Well, if you do you can have a good discussion with him, he like clever people with an opinion. At least that is my experience.

/magnus
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Yudron » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:15 pm

It's on my reading list.

I've never met Khenpo Choga, who has a large retreat center and an active group of students, but I have heard that he believes in actively confronting things that he perceives as a threat the Nyingma lineage. Is it worse than the usual Tibetan style of saying negative things about people behind their backs and smiling to their faces? Many Nyingma lamas just ignore that ChNN exists, and that is their way of dealing with his unconventional approach. Personally, I'd rather see meaningful dialogue, but there doesn't seem to be much of a middle way between ignoring and confronting in Tibetan Buddhist culture.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby heart » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:46 pm

Yudron wrote:It's on my reading list.

I've never met Khenpo Choga, who has a large retreat center and an active group of students, but I have heard that he believes in actively confronting things that he perceives as a threat the Nyingma lineage. Is it worse than the usual Tibetan style of saying negative things about people behind their backs and smiling to their faces? Many Nyingma lamas just ignore that ChNN exists, and that is their way of dealing with his unconventional approach. Personally, I'd rather see meaningful dialogue, but there doesn't seem to be much of a middle way between ignoring and confronting in Tibetan Buddhist culture.


He practiced many years in retreat with his master that had a lifestyle like Milarepa. Only when he was older he studied at Dzogchen monastery and become a Khenpo. He gave me some threads from the clothes of someone that attained rainbow body as a parting gift, I always wear it in a gau around my neck. He was very supportive to me in many ways. Funny that he is the one that went to argue the origins of Dzogchen with ChNNR, makes the whole story a kind of family story. :smile:

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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:50 pm

If this is the Khenpo Choga I think he is, he's cousin of the lama who first gave me refuge (and this neat name). But they seem to have very different approaches then. Actually I met the abbot of Dzogchen Monastery in Tibet, Pema Kalsang Rinpoche. A quite impressive presence. He was the one who told if our mind wasn't radically transformed after 20 years of practice, then we were doing it wrong. It fell as a bomb among long time practitioners here. :lol:
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:24 pm

Yudron wrote:Many Nyingma lamas just ignore that ChNN exists, and that is their way of dealing with his unconventional approach.


Yet, many of them have adopted features of his approach...
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Yudron » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:41 pm

I often think how wonderful it would be if the idea of a panel discussion could be introduced in Tibetan Buddhism. Just to listen to a civil discussion on how emptiness is presented in the various schools, for example, would be really informative.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:49 pm

Yudron wrote:I often think how wonderful it would be if the idea of a panel discussion could be introduced in Tibetan Buddhism. Just to listen to a civil discussion on how emptiness is presented in the various schools, for example, would be really informative.



Its pretty straight foward actually: the Sakyas and some Nyingmapas follow the view of Madhyamaka promulgated during the early period. Most Kagyus and some Nyingmapas adhere to the gzhan stong view, first elaborated by Dolbupa. Gelugpas and some Nyingmapas adhere to the presentation of emptiness first elaborated by Je Tsongkhapa.

For the most, the lines of discussion and debates between these three approaches to emptiness have remained unchanged since the 15th century.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Yudron » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:50 am

Malcolm wrote:
Yudron wrote:I often think how wonderful it would be if the idea of a panel discussion could be introduced in Tibetan Buddhism. Just to listen to a civil discussion on how emptiness is presented in the various schools, for example, would be really informative.



Its pretty straight foward actually: the Sakyas and some Nyingmapas follow the view of Madhyamaka promulgated during the early period. Most Kagyus and some Nyingmapas adhere to the gzhan stong view, first elaborated by Dolbupa. Gelugpas and some Nyingmapas adhere to the presentation of emptiness first elaborated by Je Tsongkhapa.

For the most, the lines of discussion and debates between these three approaches to emptiness have remained unchanged since the 15th century.


Thanks. That is not the point I am trying to get across. I deeply appreciate the traditional guru-disciple relationship and teaching methods, and these work great for the lineage of realization. As for the doctrinal lineage, I think it would be enhanced by different teaching methods being introduced. We all have different learning styles and mine benefits from a highly interactive environment--this can happen in small group or alone in traditional settings--but all the better for me if lamas were exchanging ideas, in English, too. It also would role model humility and non-sectarianism.

So, as another example, I would love to see a panel discussion with ChNN, a Nyingma Dzogchen-oriented Khenpo, Sam Van Shaik, maybe David Germano, or Alak Zenkar Rinpoche and so forth, on the early history of Dzogchen. A nice friendly discussion based on open minded apolitical look at the existing evidence. There could be maps of Asia on the overhead, and actual comparative theoretical time-lines.

I'm an Aquarian Earth Dog, and I have a personality bias towards people communicating well and working together for the common good.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:43 am

Yudron wrote:
So, as another example, I would love to see a panel discussion with ChNN,


You have seen enough Nyingma Khenpos, you can read Van Shaik, etc. easily. I suggest you attend a retreat with ChNN instead, as that would be more useful for you.

M
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Yudron » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:05 am

Malcolm wrote:
Yudron wrote:
So, as another example, I would love to see a panel discussion with ChNN,


You have seen enough Nyingma Khenpos, you can read Van Shaik, etc. easily. I suggest you attend a retreat with ChNN instead, as that would be more useful for you.

M


I have heard Rinpoche teach in person and via webcast, and I'm afraid there is no connection there. I liked his son's movie, though, and it made me understand more why he appeals to people.

As regards my main point, clearly you are not an earth dog aquarian... and the sort of systemic change I enjoy thinking about (the topics I gave were merely examples) does not grab you.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Virgo » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:15 am

Yudron wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Yudron wrote:

As regards my main point, clearly you are not an earth dog aquarian... and the sort of systemic change I enjoy thinking about (the topics I gave were merely examples) does not grab you.


He is a Water Tiger Gem Sun, Lib Moon, Virgo Ascendant.

I'm a Metal Monkey, Taurean Sun, Virgo Moon, Gemini Ascendant.

Sorrty to be ot I just like talking about things astro :p

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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby heart » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:14 am

Yudron wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Yudron wrote:I often think how wonderful it would be if the idea of a panel discussion could be introduced in Tibetan Buddhism. Just to listen to a civil discussion on how emptiness is presented in the various schools, for example, would be really informative.



Its pretty straight foward actually: the Sakyas and some Nyingmapas follow the view of Madhyamaka promulgated during the early period. Most Kagyus and some Nyingmapas adhere to the gzhan stong view, first elaborated by Dolbupa. Gelugpas and some Nyingmapas adhere to the presentation of emptiness first elaborated by Je Tsongkhapa.

For the most, the lines of discussion and debates between these three approaches to emptiness have remained unchanged since the 15th century.


Thanks. That is not the point I am trying to get across. I deeply appreciate the traditional guru-disciple relationship and teaching methods, and these work great for the lineage of realization. As for the doctrinal lineage, I think it would be enhanced by different teaching methods being introduced. We all have different learning styles and mine benefits from a highly interactive environment--this can happen in small group or alone in traditional settings--but all the better for me if lamas were exchanging ideas, in English, too. It also would role model humility and non-sectarianism.

So, as another example, I would love to see a panel discussion with ChNN, a Nyingma Dzogchen-oriented Khenpo, Sam Van Shaik, maybe David Germano, or Alak Zenkar Rinpoche and so forth, on the early history of Dzogchen. A nice friendly discussion based on open minded apolitical look at the existing evidence. There could be maps of Asia on the overhead, and actual comparative theoretical time-lines.

I'm an Aquarian Earth Dog, and I have a personality bias towards people communicating well and working together for the common good.


That panel discussion sounds quite interesting to me to.

/magnus
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Mariusz » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:07 am

From another POV :smile: :

the thigles and the vajrachains seem to be innate for everyone:

The early Neolithic (6000 - 5200 years ago) rock carving from England made by "pre civilized" mystics. Image from http://rockart.ncl.ac.uk/.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby muni » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:52 am

Reading here very interesting teachings.
Not sure I understand. My master is Rigpa and so I am Rigpa, and so I see other masters are ma rigpa or something between. Maybe lower quality.

I get it, that is not meant. :anjali: :thanks:
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby muni » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:50 am

Malcolm wrote:[

For the most, the lines of discussion and debates between these three approaches to emptiness have remained unchanged since the 15th century.


Wow! looks like an example of very strong "holding on".

:tongue: joking...

:anjali:
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby username » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
catmoon wrote:Okay, then they should all be in perfect agreement in their teachings.


Dzogchen masters are, when it comes to discussing Dzogchen.


So if it was Dzongsar Khyentse tulku & Khenpo Choga as stated here we see the above statement by Malcom is false as there are disagreements since Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche is a Dzogchen master though he teaches it not publicly but to a few close disciples specially after certain retreats he supervises.

Further, there are disagreements amongst Dzogchen masters on the necessity for ngondro as we all know well. So a second reason why Malcom's pronouncement is wrong on this very basic assumption on Dzogchen. Whether you follow ChNN or Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, you should have faith in their teachings and not otherwise online from others.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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