recent Jogye controversy

[treehuggingoctopus]

The leader of South Korea's biggest Buddhist order has apologised after monks were filmed apparently gambling illegally. Six leaders of the Jogye order offered to resign on Thursday after the secretly-filmed footage emerged. Film apparently showing monks playing poker at a luxury hotel, some smoking and drinking, was aired on television....

More here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18030813

[Malcolm]

The leader of South Korea's biggest Buddhist order has apologised after monks were filmed apparently gambling illegally. Six leaders of the Jogye order offered to resign on Thursday after the secretly-filmed footage emerged. Film apparently showing monks playing poker at a luxury hotel, some smoking and drinking, was aired on television....

More here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18030813

Ha! Back in the early '90's there was a strip joint (The Naked Eye) where some strippers that were friends of mine used to work in Boston in the Combat Zone. One night a friend and I headed down there for a drink and five Korean monks, in their monastic dress, who were staying at the Cambridge Zen Center walked out of the place as we were walking in. Our friend, who has dancing that evening, told us they had left her the best tip she had had so far that night.

[treehuggingoctopus]

Ah, the joys of monasticism

[gregkavarnos]

"Self repent on their behalf"???
My question is: where were the hookers?

Oh well, what a surprise, Buddhists are just normal people too!

[Blue Garuda]

I'm not very familiar with this sect.

Are they priests rather than monks and would they have taken different vows?

Apparently the gambling was a breach of their vows,but what about the drinking.

The offenders have 'offered' to resign and the head is offering 'self repentance'.

So none of the offenders has resigned or offered their individual repentance?

[mindyourmind]

People having fun.

How dare they

[Malcolm]

People having fun.

How dare they

I know, what is the world coming too, meat eating, and now this.

[Blue Garuda]

People having fun.

How dare they

That's the 4NT and 8FP down the gurlger then.

I've seen what happens to disciples whose gurus crash and burn through sex, alcohol etc.

One person's 'fun' may be a source of suffering for them, but a source of devastation for their disciples.

For that reason it's not something I can see as a source of humour.

[nirmal]

Due to the first seed perhaps.They can change or pretend to change, but it'll always be there.

We should keep our brighter side wide,

To tick off our darker whole,

As there's a Jekyll and Hyde,

Who lives in every soul.

[mindyourmind]

People having fun.

How dare they

That's the 4NT and 8FP down the gurlger then.

I've seen what happens to disciples whose gurus crash and burn through sex, alcohol etc.

One person's 'fun' may be a source of suffering for them, but a source of devastation for their disciples.

For that reason it's not something I can see as a source of humour.

I understand that, and I agree with you. I am also however hoping that those disciples can learn something from this, maybe a lighter side, maybe some funny side, maybe a teaching on letting go of "truths" that can help them on their path. Maybe.

[Blue Garuda]

People having fun.

How dare they

That's the 4NT and 8FP down the gurlger then.

I've seen what happens to disciples whose gurus crash and burn through sex, alcohol etc.

One person's 'fun' may be a source of suffering for them, but a source of devastation for their disciples.

For that reason it's not something I can see as a source of humour.

I understand that, and I agree with you. I am also however hoping that those disciples can learn something from this, maybe a lighter side, maybe some funny side, maybe a teaching on letting go of "truths" that can help them on their path. Maybe.

[Indrajala]

People having fun.

How dare they

I know, what is the world coming too, meat eating, and now this.

Historically this kind of behaviour has never been uncommon in Buddhism. Theravada, East Asia or Tibetan, this sort of thing happens. It makes you wonder though about the ultimate value of such institutions. Is it really about renunciation from samsaric ways, or something else?

[Blue Garuda]

People having fun.

How dare they

I know, what is the world coming too, meat eating, and now this.

Historically this kind of behaviour has never been uncommon in Buddhism. Theravada, East Asia or Tibetan, this sort of thing happens. It makes you wonder though about the ultimate value of such institutions. Is it really about renunciation from samsaric ways, or something else?

I think it has more to do with individuals who are persuaded that the 8FP is not necessary for them. because they are somehow already so enlightened that it will not be detrimental to them or their followers. It seems to me that some gurus have persuaded others that somehow there is a Buddhist path which is just sooooo advanced it can ignore unwholesome behaviour and the 8FP completely. These monks are weak and foolish, others are potentially much more harmful.

As I wrote before, if they want to harm themselves it is sad, but the harm they do to their disciples is tragic.

[Indrajala]

I think it has more to do with individuals who are persuaded that the 8FP is not necessary for them. because they are somehow already so enlightened that it will not be detrimental to them or their followers. It seems to me that some gurus have persuaded others that somehow there is a Buddhist path which is just sooooo advanced it can ignore unwholesome behaviour and the 8FP completely. These monks are weak and foolish, others are potentially much more harmful.

As I wrote before, if they want to harm themselves it is sad, but the harm they do to their disciples is tragic.

I think the main problem lay in the reality that many monastics are in their positions as a result of having decided on it as a career path, rather than as a means of overcoming samsara.

Institutionalized Buddhism generally offers a comfortable life to those who would enter as lifelong clergy. This means you probably won't get renunciate yogis running day to day operations and having access to money.

[kirtu]

Institutionalized Buddhism generally offers a comfortable life to those who would enter as lifelong clergy. This means you probably won't get renunciate yogis running day to day operations and having access to money.

Renunciate yogis - are they any more than a myth or a memory nowadays?

Of course I exaggerate a bit - I'm certain that there are some renunciate yogis in the Jogye order. But they not likely to attain operational positions as you note.

Kirt

[Indrajala]

Renunciate yogis - are they any more than a myth or a memory nowadays?

Of course I exaggerate a bit - I'm certain that there are some renunciate yogis in the Jogye order. But they not likely to attain operational positions as you note.

Kirt

In my experience most Buddhist organizations will have a few yogis somewhere hidden away, but they're entirely out of the public spotlight for obvious reasons and probably will never be known or in a position of power. They are renunciates, largely unknown to the world and not interested in involving themselves in bureaucratic activities.

Nevertheless, they are such a small minority that they hardly count when evaluating circumstances of Buddhist communities.

[kirtu]

In my experience most Buddhist organizations will have a few yogis somewhere hidden away, but they're entirely out of the public spotlight for obvious reasons and probably will never be known or in a position of power. They are renunciates, largely unknown to the world and not interested in involving themselves in bureaucratic activities.

Nevertheless, they are such a small minority that they hardly count when evaluating circumstances of Buddhist communities.

The candles are about to be blown out. Renunciate yogis need to take a more proactive stance in order to change their environment and organizations.

Kirt

[Indrajala]

The candles are about to be blown out. Renunciate yogis need to take a more proactive stance in order to change their environment and organizations.

Kirt

Well there have been some who have done this. Master Sheng Yen was in solitary retreat for six years before going out, teaching, reforming and building up Dharma Drum Mountain. Ajahn Brahm is another good example of a yogi who has also has taken up a position of leadership and even formed a new community.

[gregkavarnos]

The candles are about to be blown out. Renunciate yogis need to take a more proactive stance in order to change their environment and organizations.

That's pretty difficult for them to do considering they are normally far, far away from luxury hotels, tobacco stores and the company of gamblers! I think historically renunciate yogis have always been the minority in religious organisations (of any demoniation).

[Nighthawk]

Living it up