Scottish Independence

[AdmiralJim]

Hi guys,
I am not sure how aware people are of the potential for the UK to be broken up after the Scottish National Party won a huge majority at the devolved Holyrood parliament - a show of huge disillusionment at Westminster as the devolved parliament in Scotland is a proportional system where achieving a majority is nearly impossible. I myself am considering voting for independence as the union of Scotland of England was a never a democratic choice in the first place. Anyway appreciate peoples thoughts.

[Norwegian]

A friend of mine from Scotland have talked about this quite a lot, and he said to me he hopes 2014 will be Scotland's 1905 (drawing comparison to Norway, and its dissolving of the union with Sweden, and achieving full independence).

He said many in the UK somehow are trying to either mock or scare Scotland, into believing becoming independent would be a disaster for them...

And well, if it was necessary, you could always apply for membership of the Nordic nations - lots of shared history with Norway. And then there was the Auld Alliance too (Scotland, France, and Norway)!

Whatever the case though, I do hope you get your independence.

[kirtu]

Still arguing over the Stone of Scone? Reminds me of Highlander ....

Kirt

[Stewart]

Highlander?!

No Kirt, It's a bit more serious than that to us Scots. If you have nothing constructive to add, probably best not to just chip in with the first 2 Scottish cliches that came to mind. Surprised you never mentioned shortbread.

[AdmiralJim]

He said many in the UK somehow are trying to either mock or scare Scotland, into believing becoming independent would be a disaster for them...

It is unbelievable what is being said, one of the problems with the scare stories is that the SNP have been remarkably competent. The main thrust of the attack is that Scotland that gets more money handed to it that it gives to the UK treasury which if you factor in oil wealth ( something the UK government doesn't do ) isn't true at all. We give free care to the elderly, university tuition is free and all prescribed medicine is also free - I point out that those south of the border could also have this, it is just that conservative cronies propped up by liberal democrat sell outs will never see it as a priority. It is a little ironic to attack us for spending money, 'extra' money when it is clearly the case that the Westminster government just couldn't care less about it's own citizens south of the border.
Scottish people are also being indirectly blamed for the banking collapse as it is Scottish banks like 'Bank of Scotland and 'Royal bank of Scotland' who invested wrongly. The hilarity of this isn't lost on anyone in - especially considering that they are huge multinationals which collapse is about as 'Scottish' as my broken television is the fault of the 'Chinese'.

Well as for the 'Stone of Scone' I am thinking we should deal with Royalists the way the French did, namely with lots of alcohol but with a Scottish twist namely the 'Iron Maiden' the local beheading axe that hasn't been used in 500 years, it is hanging up wasted in our local museum. Basically I couldn't give a toss, I really wish the SNP would relinquish the idea of our current 'Betty the 2nd' as head of state
I used to work in Norway and absolutely loved it, when I was there the people I worked with were amazed that we weren't independent yet and thought we were pretty stupid dithering about it. I think we should resurrect the 'Auld' alliance, although I don't like french wine and that strange Norwegian sandwiches made with one piece of bread? What on earth is going on there?!

[AdmiralJim]

Take a deep breath Sam, I am just amazed it wasn't whisky that was mentioned, for some reason my Firefox doesn't like the proper spelling.

[kirtu]

No Kirt, It's a bit more serious than that to us Scots. If you have nothing constructive to add, probably best not to just chip in with the first 2 Scottish cliches that came to mind. Surprised you never mentioned shortbread.

I had no intention to be insulting at all. But why is this important? Should we see autonomous or independent regions proliferate in Europe? An autonomous/independent Wendish region in Germany, a Danish one in Schleswig-Holstein, a German one hugging the Belgian-German border, a separate South-Tirol, separate German regions even now in western Poland, an autonomous Friesland (that always got big laughs in German teen-young adult movies) and then autonomous West and East Friesland, maybe an independent Pictish area, France could split into Normany, the Italian region, an autonomous Alsace, two different Basque regions, etc. (note how many of these are German linguistic regions even now)? Much of Europe can be turned into the Duchy of Grand Fenwick. This worked so well in the Balkans and over the long sweep of European history from the fall of the Roman Empire.

Kirt

[kirtu]

Highlander?! ... with the first 2 Scottish cliches that came to mind.

It was a set of three cult movies (the first being the best) and a US-Canadian TV show.

Surprised you never mentioned shortbread.

I had no idea that shortbread was Scottish. In fact I have no real idea what shortbread is aside from some English thing. Pumpernickel bread (yum ) I can identify and ask for in a few languages. Shortbread - not really.

Kirt

[AdmiralJim]

The reason it is important is because it was a question the Scottish public were never asked. I find it ironic that a guy who lives in the States to not acknowledge that especially considering Scotland was a sovereign state with its own language, culture and legal system, something that the USA never was, just being a colony. Scottish people were executed for wearing tartan, reading books and even for playing musical instruments - injustices which are a long thing past - well that all depends if you include the poll tax scandals and the fact all of the UK nuclear weapons are forcibly based here. There are huge social divides in general Scotland is more socialist and egalitarian, with England being less so - apart from the north east areas of England. It is a protest at Westminster rule where blatant incompetence is rife and the first past the post voting system is an absolute disgrace. Unfortunately I think independence will not come because it tends to be little old ladies who have voted the same way for 40 years who vote - the fed up youth being a sizable silent majority. Rabbie burns said it well -

Fareweel to a' our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name,
Sae fam'd in martial story.
Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
An' Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England's province stands-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English stell we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

O would, or I had seen the day
That Treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay,
Wi' Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I'll mak this declaration;
We're bought and sold for English gold-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

[Stewart]

Kirt

With respect, your posts make you look arrogant and pretentious, not the 'well read' and 'effortlessly intelligent' you were aiming for. Anyone who can read can source the speech you just gave on Wikipedia in 5 minutes.

Highlander at no point touches on Scottish independence or even factual Scottish history, so pointless to mention it at all really.

Scotland was once a thriving independent nation, unlike many of your 'examples', with It's own Royal house, one of the oldest in Europe, and judicial system, much of which is the basis of Scots law today. Not to mention the innovators and inventors, scientists and thinkers who have shaped the modern world we live in. So I guess that's why It's important.

Think again.

[Stewart]

Highlander?! ... with the first 2 Scottish cliches that came to mind.

It was a set of three cult movies (the first being the best) and a US-Canadian TV show.

Surprised you never mentioned shortbread.

I had no idea that shortbread was Scottish. In fact I have no real idea what shortbread is aside from some English thing. Pumpernickel bread (yum ) I can identify and ask for in a few languages. Shortbread - not really.

Kirt

Yeah, that's the point exactly Kirt...It's not 'some English thing' and neither is Scotland or It's people.

[AdmiralJim]

Afraid I don't know what kirtu's source is :S I tend to avoid wikipaedia as it is........................well pretty questionable

[Stewart]

Kirt,

Please don't bother replying to my posts, I really don't care what you have to say on the matter. Save you efforts for something else.

Best wishes.

Ps. Yeah Jim, I avoid it too....that was my point

[kirtu]

Anyone who can read can source the speech you just gave on Wikipedia in 5 minutes.

Out of curiosity, what are you talking about?

Kirt

[Stewart]

Just you, hitting out with your clever little list of examples. Anyway see above, goodnight.

[kirtu]

Just you, hitting out with your clever little list of examples. Anyway see above, goodnight.

Well my list of examples was not gleaned from an online source. I partly grew up in Western Europe and these are examples from my life experiences. And yes all those linguistic groups would lay claim to a history separate from the larger group in which they are now embeded.

Regionalism in Europe is a problematic thing. I have no opinion on Scottish "independence" (after all the UK is a legal union so Scotland is already independent). All people have the right of self-determination and I have come across degrees of Scottish superiority before (i.e. all or most scientific or technological advances stem from Scotts) but seen from the US Scottish nationalism seems somewhat like a non-issue. Admiral Jim summed it up as a protest or both or you as an assertion of independence coupled with dissatisfaction over the current situation. Okay. As long as it benefits beings in the short term and the long run.

But personally I cannot think of any example where nationalism or an assertion of group superiority has not created suffering on our planet.

Kirt

[AdmiralJim]

after all the UK is a legal union so Scotland is already independent

Afraid that just isn't true. It isn't an assertion of superiority of one group of another I don't think - in fact there have never been any recent race riots up here in a long time, not in my 26 years I can remember - the SNP actually advocate an increase immigration to Scotland from Europe - something that cannot be said of our pillock of a prime minster David Cameron. It is the feeling that as a region we could do a better without inefficient Westminster.
I feel a little sad that the USA feel it is a non-issue since we lost our independence only 69 years before the USA gained its independence and the fact as a country you have prospered in the long run is pretty undeniable. It is also pretty depressing that a country that which enshrines the values of democracy will show no interest in it given the shared historical heritage between our countries, especially the 'Declaration of Arbroath', which even one of your presidents said had an influence on the founding fathers.

[kirtu]

after all the UK is a legal union so Scotland is already independent

Afraid that just isn't true.

Union in 1707 - although it sounds like a shotgun wedding of sorts. Scotland and England had shared the same monarch since King James circa 1606.

It isn't an assertion of superiority of one group of another

Not to mention the innovators and inventors, scientists and thinkers who have shaped the modern world we live in.

I've heard similar assertions of Scottish superiority usually stated as name an English scientist or inventor, to which in response hapless Americans recite a litany of Scotts.

It is the feeling that as a region we could do a better without inefficient Westminster.

Ok, have at it.

It is also pretty depressing that a country that which enshrines the values of democracy

The US does not enshrine the values of democracy. Only a minority of people do otherwise there would not have been slavery or legal prejudice, etc. The US enshrines the values of it's own form of capitalism and is pretty set on a revival of Dickensonian England where people are utterly devalued except as meager producers subject to corporate thumbs and enthralled by sense experience and strangling in debt.

especially the 'Declaration of Arbroath', which even one of your presidents said had an influence on the founding fathers.

People are always claiming this or that document or line of thought that had influence upon the Founding Fathers. Most of the Founding Fathers were highly educated, wealthy, upperclass people. They essentially had access to all the published knowledge of the world and many things might have influenced them but it often seems like a stretch (for example, the Irish were alleged by Patrick Buchanan to have significantly influenced the Founding Fathers, others claim the Huron Confederacy had a direct impact).

Guess what - the country that emerged from the 1776 Declaration of Independence was still a slave owning society not deeply committed to liberty as claimed. It was committed to a very narrow interpretation of liberty. Some people did in effect support universal liberty (Vermonters for example). Most didn't. The US isn't the US because Jefferson wasn't Jefferson, even cribbing from George Mason (who also didn't live up to his ideals).

However I am concerned that European regionalism could devolve into war and genocide not that I think that will happen over in the British Isles (it has already of course with the Serbo-Croatia wars and genocide, ongoing Basque terrorism, occasional South Tirolian terrorism, etc.).

Kirt

[AdmiralJim]

I've heard similar assertions of Scottish superiority usually stated as name an English scientist or inventor, to which in response hapless Americans recite a litany of Scotts.

That is pretty naive you have obviously never heard of the 'Scottish Enlightenment', it is not a claim of superiority at all. As for the shared royal family you obviously do not know your history again, the true heirs to the throne of Scotland was the house of Stuart. You call it regionalism lol well it goes far beyond this as I have already pointed out Scotland was independent a lot longer than it has been part of the Union. The Union was very much a shotgun wedding because Scottish nobles lined their own purses while the common man had absolutely no say - this in combination with long term Westminster excess is what is driving the independence referendum not some weird racial nationalism which you seem to think it is.
If anything the the parliament of Westminster is the most dangerously nationalistic with our prime minster claiming 'multiculturalism' has failed - a Tory - also bullshit like - Immigrants should be deported because we are 'full up', for crying out loud there are even fascists which have been elected to city councils and the main European parliament - something which has never happened in Scotland.

[kirtu]

Native English speakers really do have to learn to read for content, minimize assumptions and to think logically. Twisting words for advantage is a form of corruption:

this in combination with long term Westminster excess is what is driving the independence referendum not some weird racial nationalism which you seem to think it is.

I never asserted anything about racism at all. Never. It is dishonest beyond words to try to wrap what I said about that interpretation (you did suggest this in a previous posting but I thought I had dealt with that).

So just do your best. Just don't spark war and genocide in less stable regions of Europe by providing a banner under which future Milosovec's, Mladic's and Karadzic's could rally their people by illegitimately invoking Scotland as an example. While Scottish independence is totally a UK concern, taking that example as a means toward further bloodshed in Europe is a concern in the US.