socialist consolidation of power leaps forward....

[Heruka]

Europe Turns to China for Aid in Debt Crisis

By Jonathan Stearns and Helene Fouquet - Oct 26, 2011

French President Nicolas Sarkozy said he plans to call Chinese counterpart Hu Jintao today to discuss China contributing to Europe’s efforts to resolve the region’s debt crisis.

The European Financial Stability Facility will be worth about $1.4 trillion after European leaders agreed to leverage existing guarantees by as much as five times, Sarkozy said at a briefing in Brussels at 4 a.m. local time. The presidents will speak about noon Brussels time and Chinese support will be welcomed, he said.

Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao has signaled willingness to aid the European Union as financial turmoil within the region threatens to crush export demand in China’s biggest market. The expansion of the rescue fund and a deal for bondholders to take 50 percent losses on Greek debt may help Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel to convince the world that Europe is getting to grips with the crisis.

“China will need time to evaluate this plan very carefully,” said Shen Jianguang, a Hong Kong-based economist for Mizuho Securities Asia Ltd. “What worries China is that there is so much disagreement among European policy makers. It doesn’t want to be seen spending money on a plan that even Europeans don’t want to support.”

Sarkozy and Hu’s conversation comes a day before a planned visit to Beijing by Klaus Regling, chief executive officer of the EFSF, to court investors. China has the world’s largest foreign currency reserves at more than $3.2 trillion.

Sovereign Bonds

The EFSF, established last year to sell bonds to finance loans for distressed euro nations, has since also gained the authority to buy sovereign bonds on the secondary and primary markets, offer credit lines to governments and recapitalize banks as the Greece-triggered debt troubles have spread. The EFSF said Regling’s visit to China this week is linked to the fund’s original debt-issuance role.

“It is a normal round of discussion with important buyers of EFSF bonds,” Christof Roche, spokesman for the Luxembourg- based facility, said by e-mail yesterday. He declined to comment further when contacted by Bloomberg News by telephone. Agence France-Presse reported that Regling will travel on to Tokyo, citing a European Union official in Asia.

China may be willing to respond to a European request to help them fund a package to solve the euro region’s debt crisis, AFP said, citing unidentified government officials familiar with the situation.


more....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-2 ... stors.html

[Sönam]

China has no choice, there economy is mostly based on european export ... I hope Greece won't pay a penny of debt!



Sönam

[Thug4lyfe]

Sigh... Marxism is the consolidation of "Greed, Anger and Ignorance" Harmed the world just as much as the opposing team

[Sönam]

If marxism is the consolidation of "Greed, Anger and Ignorance" i wonder what is capitalism ...

Sönam

[Clarence]

I hope Greece won't pay a penny of debt!
Sönam

Why?

[Sönam]

I hope Greece won't pay a penny of debt!
Sönam

Why?

because all solutions they found is to have that debt paid by the (simple) citizen ... but the debt has not been accumulated by them. By the same time European States recharge the banks, they (the banks) pay out dividendes to share holders ... what some (French) banks are loosing with the unpaid part of the Greek debt is equal to what they have pay out in the same time.
So it's time to say no way, stop, end, finish ... we peoples don't play anymore !

Sönam

[ronnewmexico]

The closely held secret in this that the media will not tell you...Iceland.

The covered the debt held by banks located in iceland of the local kind but by vote, the peoples refused to cover the debts of the international sections of those same banks.
England is suing them currently over this debt.

But iceland....has done just fine since the default, the refusal of the government to cover the debt owed by the now nationalized banks
They will not tell you their story it would destroy them, those that hold these kinds of debts, if others refuse to pay them.
So you are left unknowing, and unable to make informed decisions in these things you call democracies.

ON China.....this is quite absurd...they hold more than one trillion in US debt. By the logic displayed in the initial.... China is then propping up the "socialist" united states...quite absurd.

China does not even have a social security program and little to none of free health care of any quality. That they are even socialist is a big big reach.
People confuse totalitarian with socialistic and communistic. Anything can be called anything...we should not confuse a named thing with a reality.

[Heruka]

But iceland....has done just fine since the default,

iceland has its problems, but the people at least did not let the political class persude them that it was a public debt, and not private debt owned by the bankers.

it really exposes the fact that the megabanks really do show their hand in letting the political class know who really runs the show.

[ronnewmexico]

Exactly...I agree 100%.

There is a significant history of debts of all sorts and kinds related to governments being defaulted over a historical timeframe.
This is nothing new, what is perhaps new, is convincing the masses those debts are their debts.

and..a lot of bankers and politicians ended up doing time in Iceland related to this debt. Wouldn't that be refreshing.

[Heruka]

Wouldn't that be refreshing.

people have to understand that the sanctity of private held bonds and debt is not greater than public pensions and welfare, no matter how hard the sell is to convince otherwise. but alas in europe, where real democracy is dead under the euro commision, i see the political "officals" and "authorities" under instruction from private family owned central banks making plans to circulate more fiat euros in a hope to leverage their way to prosperity again. like a man trying to pull himself up, whilst holding the handles of a bucket he is standing in.

nice to see you ron.

[gregkavarnos]

China, Russia and some Saudi interests had offered to help out Greece right at the beginning of the crisis with better terms and interest rates than the IMF and the EU but the EU didn't let them make a deal. They wanted to be the first leeches in line. Now the slimey bastards are turning to China for help. Now that they have bled Greek citizens dry. My guess is that they didn't expect the Greek citizens to react in the way that they did (and are continuing to react).

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[ronnewmexico]

This cycle replicates argentina who defaulted back in the 2000's...from Wiki..."The Argentine government kept a firm stance, and finally got a deal by which 76% of the defaulted bonds were exchanged by others, of a much lower nominal value (25–35% of the original) and at longer terms. Among these bonds, some are indexed based on the future economic growth of Argentina....

see argentina had a parallel situation around 2002 and the pattern was the same...eventually the people got sick and tired of the "austerity" measures and said no....we will not pay.

So they held firm and the financial community under the leadership of the IMF did restructure 75% of the debt to reasonable terms which could be paid off.

Once restructured...they paid it off and now own nothing and the economy....doing just fine. Very tough times though till the financial industry caved.

this they also do not want you to know about.....
See goldman and them hold issues called credit default swaps which value, when the bonds fail. So interest is on the side of these countries failing...but there is also interest on the side of the bondholders...so by my guess they(the financial industry) wants the bonds to technically default(so they may redeem the swaps) but the bonds themselves can be redeemed at value by the owners....technically to become the euro union not the individual governments.
So the bonds fail technically(the original owners the greece government for example default)..but the debt is still redeemable by the European union, as they then assume backing.
Just conjecture but it sort of makes sense as to why they are letting this go this way..that and ending all social programs which just get in the way of profit....


Greece (whoever )is then financially dessimated but the bondholders and those that bet against the bonds like goldman through naked swaps...both get paid ...fleecing the coountry and its peoples left to fend for themselves.
ah cynical me.

It's funny a bit to think of this...but the first elimination of the death penalty in our modern world occured by government not in the US nor China Nor Tibet or Nepal Nor India but in the Bolivarian influenced nations, those of south and central america..they were the first in present historical times..

Perhaps history will repeat itself....Argentina and the nations of the lower americas will lead the way out from the yoke of corporate and financial debt burden in consort with governments and the banks... and show a way out......

guess not but its nice to hope.

[Heruka]

greg, ron.

my understanding is the 50% haircut greece took on its debt, will be backed by 1 trillion in euros, so in reality the haircut was just propaganda, in fact that 1 trillion can then be leveraged by the central bank, 5 times, i.e. 5 trillion in euros from thin air, can then be loaned out to high street banks at 0% interest, those banks can leverage that 5 trillion 5 times and so on, and loaned to business and customers at any interest rate they choose, if they indeed decide to loan. more money in circulation means inflation in goods and services, prices dont rise but the value of your money goes down, meaning it takes more of it to buy food, cars, goods etc. unemployment goes up as a check on inflation, less goods are sold, the economy plunges deeper into depression, taxes will rise as a way for government to suck the circulation of currency back into the central banks, and things go down in a spiral, and more people become dependent on government welfare to live, increasing the expansion of growth in government.....and the whole thing is a race to the bottom.

so no, doing the same thing that created the crisis is not the answer to getting out of the crisis, it just consolidates more power and wealth to an elite political/private partnership, central planning, economic cartel few who will prosper at the expense of the many.
hope when granny is eating dog food out of tin can to survive, peoples compassion for each other does not fly out of the window.

[Heruka]

Greece (whoever )is then financially dessimated but the bondholders and those that bet against the bonds like goldman through naked swaps...both get paid ...fleecing the coountry and its peoples left to fend for themselves.
ah cynical me.

no its not cynical R, but a reality thats in plain sight, but most will refuse to look.

[Heruka]

no its not cynical R, but a reality thats in plain sight, but most will refuse to look.

In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

[ronnewmexico]

The problem with the euro, a problem not forseen by those masters of intelligence who brought us the banking crisis ..

they can't inflate out of the problem. INflation is normally the issue of last recourse with a countrywide inability to repay debt. Inflate the currency and the debt magically disappears. A standard course of action that be.
Euro..one or two or three of more hold the debt in euro. The non debtor nations hold no debt so the euro cannot be debased significantly.
Germany and others would be left holding the financial bag.

So...the pickel they are in and the various strategies to remedy the defaults.
My guess....eventually nations pull out of the euro(or get thrown out) or(lesser chance)....a two currency euro occurs. ONe for debtor nations and one for not.

Debts of all sorts and kinds are defaulted all the time, always have been in a historical context, nations corporations individuals. WE could look at financial history as going from one default to another in a very large time contest, it is that common. Though defaults take many sundry forms some quite covert. The notion this spells the end to all social programs is a new wrinkle to the issue in this particular place and time.

Political agenda that be..little related to the issue. A worker being able to retire at 65 as opposed to 55 in say greece....it is easy to see how that little relates to the scope of the debt greece is faced with. What amazes me is that people eat that stuff up with not a question.

Yes....never looking at the mechanism behind the debt where it originated where it comes and where it goes and who benefits by its movements to credit or default. ...the real story...not pap for the masses to digest.

Iceland...refused the debt, by public policy refused to cover the bankers in their play(still being sued on that)....just had their bonds reset,,,none the worse for wear..
Argentina before that.....those stories you will not hear...what happens when they the people refuse to pay.....exactly what......Iceland is what....
or believe their phantasy.