Norway attack.

[mudra]

Actually most media were on to it pretty early, talking about neo-nazi organizations etc - though I guess we always have to make an exception for Fox News (sigh...). They probably remembered the Timothy McVeigh/Oklahoma bombing suspect debacle.

As to how much damage a lone gunman can do, Ron, well In a country that simply has never dreamt of that kind of violence, a trained weapons expert could do a lot of damage very quickly. In the States perhaps people are more inured to it. People would be completely startled - if you listened to the accounts most of teenagers and rescuers gave, it was pretty clear that the kids totally panicked. At one point they saw this guy in a police uniform and thought they were saved, and the guy turned out to be the gunman. That must have completely thrown them again.

[ronnewmexico]

While initially of great interest, western media now that this is not a muslim terrorists attack seems to have largly disavowed the story.
Blibs and blabs here and there but considering this is the worst mass murde in recent memory, by a single individual(claimed).....not a lot about it.
About equal with the pop singer who died right now.

For those that may not know...Norway peoples have today put on gigantic marches of solidarity and peace in memory of those slain, hundreds of thousands in attendence.
Far from inspiring revolution as this nut and/or his friends intended, he has inspired a mass outpouring of peaceful intention...strange how things work
a good to the bad.

[Kare]

While initially of great interest, western media now that this is not a muslim terrorists attack seems to have largly disavowed the story.
Blibs and blabs here and there but considering this is the worst mass murde in recent memory, by a single individual(claimed).....not a lot about it.
About equal with the pop singer who died right now.

For those that may not know...Norway peoples have today put on gigantic marches of solidarity and peace in memory of those slain, hundreds of thousands in attendence.
Far from inspiring revolution as this nut and/or his friends intended, he has inspired a mass outpouring of peaceful intention...strange how things work
a good to the bad.

You are right. Yesterday it was planned to arrange a memorial march or procession in Oslo. People were asked to bring a rose and come to the Town Hall square (between the town hall and the harbour) in order to start the procession there. More than 100 000 (some say it was close to 200 000) people came, so it was decided that it was impossible to bring all those people through the streets in a procession. In stead there was held a ceremony there in front of the Town Hall. It was transferred on the TV, and it was a very moving and dignified happening. The crown prince, the prime minister and others gave speeches, focusing not on hate and revenge, but on love and taking care of each other. Here is a video:

http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=42472

After the speeches and the songs were finished, people walked away in quiet grief, spontaneously leaving their flowers creating flower decorations all over the centre of Oslo:

http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=42479

Also, just after the news were known, some people left flowers, candles, greetings and small flags at the door of the Oslo Domkirke (the central church in Oslo). More and more people left flowers there, and the police had to close the street outside the church for cars, until there now is a veritable ocean of flowers spreading across the street and far into the market place:

http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=42486

I think these pictures say more than words about the general feelings in Norway just now.

[tobes]

Well, we've already had a long thread in which some people expressed alarm at the proliferation of anti-Islamic sentiment in Europe, and others justified it as well founded.

I don't wish to start another long, tiring debate; but I think it is worth remembering all that was said on that thread.

As one of the people expressing alarm, well, unfortunately there is now compelling evidence why such a stance is warranted.

As an aside, it is interesting how a Christian doing an unspeakable deed is characterised as "a lone psychotic gunman" (not a Christian terrorist) and no one is blaming the entire religion of Christianity for his action.

That's not true, Huffpo has it here:

"Anders Behring Breivik is a Christian terrorist determined to touch off a new Christian-Muslim war that would rival medieval Crusades."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-cru ... 08172.html

And there are certainly precedents even in the New Testament for such actions:

Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. [Mt 10.34 NRSV]

For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it. [Mt. 10.35-39]

Now granted, there is a preponderance of evidence that Jesus would not have approved of the various wars and so on fought in his name. However, militant Christians usually look to the Old Testament for justifications for their wars, as you must know.

Now, it is ironic that man trying to start a race war in Europe chose to murder Socialists, rather than Muslims.

He also quoted JS Mill on his website, so I suppose if you're going to be consistent you will have to argue that hermeneutically inept liberals are also prone to terrorism.

Or will you ever grant that it is not the text, but the misreading of it.....

[ronnewmexico]

kare....thank you very much for providing that. You peoples are very brave. A example to us all in your compassion. Wonderful is your compassion. I heard many of the smaller places also had things of this sort on a smaller scale.

Ah...anger...they should tie this folker down.... strapped down.... make him watch videos like that for a 30 years or so..clockwork orange like...
tape his eyes open.....but suppose that will not happen.

What was the acoustical guitar woman singing...... the general meaning. Being a idiot I don't know Norwegian..just curious.

[Malcolm]

Or will you ever grant that it is not the text, but the misreading of it.....

That would suggest that is such a thing as a "correct" reading of any text.

N

[tobes]

Or will you ever grant that it is not the text, but the misreading of it.....

That would suggest that is such a thing as a "correct" reading of any text.

N

Indeed. I am aware of the hermeneutical license we are all granted in these post-modern times, but.......

Failing to recognise that JS Mill is defending individual liberty from possible external harms would be incorrect.

Or failing to recongise that Nagarjuna is denying independent existence would be incorrect.

[Kare]

kare....thank you very much for providing that. You peoples are very brave. A example to us all in your compassion. Wonderful is your compassion. I heard many of the smaller places also had things of this sort on a smaller scale.

Ah...anger...they should tie this folker down.... strapped down.... make him watch videos like that for a 30 years or so..clockwork orange like...
tape his eyes open.....but suppose that will not happen.

What was the acoustical guitar woman singing...... the general meaning. Being a idiot I don't know Norwegian..just curious.

Her name is Maria Mena, and she was singing a song by the poet, singer and song writer Ole Paus: "Mitt lille land" (My small country)

Mitt lille land
Et lite sted der en håndfull fred slengt ut
blant vidder og fjord
Mitt lille land,der høye fjell står plantet mellom hus,
og mennesker og ord.
Der stillhet, og drømmer gror.
Som et ekko,
i karrig jord.
Mitt lille land,
der havet stryker mildt om rygg,
som kjærtegn fra kyst til kyst.
Mitt lille land, der stjerner glir forbi og blir et landskap når det blir lyst,
mens natten,
står blek og tyst.

The text is a poetical description of Norwegian nature, peace, people and love. It's difficult to translate it without losing the poetical beauty of it.

Here's a full version of the song: http://www.tv2.no/underholdning/gkn/her ... 45208.html

[Malcolm]

Indeed. I am aware of the hermeneutical license we are all granted in these post-modern times, but.......

Failing to recognise that JS Mill is defending individual liberty from possible external harms would be incorrect.

Or failing to recongise that Nagarjuna is denying independent existence would be incorrect.

Well, actually there are many people who think that Nagarjuna's line [paraphrase] "a svabhāva is independent and does not depend on anything" serves to define what is real as opposed to what is contigent. I have heard Lama's of gshan stong persuasion give exactly that interpretation. And this is pre-modern...

And the lunatic in Norway obviously was deluded enough to think that he was protecting individual liberty...

[ronnewmexico]

Kare...thanks again...I took the liberty to post the other version here as referenced in your post...I hope you don't mind.

........

Hearing about this now in media by people who have apparently taken the time to read this idiots manifesto, it appears all centered(despite the right wind pundits claims against in the american media) in a religious context...christians against muslims. One in the US going so far as to say since this is terrorism this man is not a christian. Obviously muslims saying the same thing about their self killing ones, and HIndus about their Tamil Tiger bombers, and on and on ..

it never ends.....tears flowing from eyes to keyboards to desks to rivers to valleys enought to fill the world and drown away this dirt thing, this thing of belief we find every where and elsewhere of nation of group of people of religion of every thing..it purvades us all.
Enough to drown it all these tears.

this thing of dirt that hinders a peaceful in the main kind peoples from living a life of happiness and contentment in their land, doing as people do just what they need to get by, and help when they may...it is so sad.

NO need to translate, I think I get it...the songs words are in my bones....I need just to listen to them... thanks

[MJH]

Here's a video from the torchlight procession in our little town, Drammen.

[ronnewmexico]

Thanks MJH

By my guess.... definitively, if this ignorant racist bastard knew the result, this overwhelming response of compassion and wholeness that would result...I'm certain this he would never have done.

So it serves great purpose...this response will stop the killing of other innocents....some at least(unfortunately not all)..... quite surely.
All responded to in this great fashion and all the attacks on innocents would stop. Till then, we wait and suffer.

[ronnewmexico]

A update on the attack. It seems the number of dead on the island has declined to 68.
The shooter apparently bought 10 30 round clips from a american supplier. The law outlawing such clips in the US was removed in 2004.
Most All of mexicos drug war waaponry also originates in the US. Many thousand are killed as part consequence of this in that nation .

A link to a democracy now interview iwth John Galtung a famous norweigan peace advocate whose granddaughter survived the attack and was with the shooter on the boat on his way to the island. John Galtungs most recent book speaks to the end of the american empire...http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/29/norways_johan_galtung_peace_conflict_pioneer ........

This is now in the main long gone from american consciousness sad to say, being replaced by some or other scandle or dancing with the stars, or weight loss shows or some other trivia.
Their minds have degenerated into mush.
Hence the actions of their government.

[mudra]

this article is worth reading regarding Breivik (and others like him) in Europe's growing anti-Muslim sentiment. Shades of anti Jewish attitudes of the past.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/anders-behring-breivik-pim-fortuyn

[Thug4lyfe]

Heavy symptom of Greed, Anger and Ignorance

I think the media should play down on his trails etc. Media attention is what he wanted.

[Aemilius]

this article is worth reading regarding Breivik (and others like him) in Europe's growing anti-Muslim sentiment. Shades of anti Jewish attitudes of the past.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/anders-behring-breivik-pim-fortuyn

Guardian forgets to mention that Breivik was a Mason,... Sorry!, It seems that they have taken it away and instead he is a Templar now. Before they said that Breivik had described himself in his Face book profile as a Mason and a christian. There was a picture of him in his Masonic dress in David Icke's website. But that was removed quite soon, for some reason or other ?!?
Now we have this http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/51392-the-rise-of-knights-templar-europe
His facebook profile has been removed but it is still in the Google archives, said rense.com one week ago.

[Aemilius]

When the Norway attack occurred I was reading the poems of Edda. Then I heard about a slaughter in Oslo and it didn't seem very strange against the background of Edda, where mercy certainly is not counted as a virtue. But times change.
For those who have read Edda, have you ever thought that Odin is the Oddiyan Guru, i.e. the Lotusborn, and that the Valkyrias are Dakinis ? There are many similarities, Odin has several dozen different names for example. In the Heroic poems of Edda the narrator says that in olden times people believed in reincarnation, but not so much anymore. There are several places in Edda where someone is said to be a reincarnation of someone, like an incarnation of Svava as an example, a Valkyria. The Asas are asuras and the Vanis are devas, etc...

[kirtu]

And there are certainly precedents even in the New Testament for such actions:

No there's not ...

Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. [Mt 10.34 NRSV]

For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it. [Mt. 10.35-39]

Next up: Christians really ARE cannibals ....

that passage is nearly universally interpreted as referring to the controversial nature of Jesus' message - his followers would be ostracised because of the Christian view that beings really are desperately sinful and incapable of love and kindness except through the grace of God and usually not even then ....

Some Christian groups (cults) have trotted it out to justify individual attacks on their neighbors (the US Range Wars with the backdrop of anti-Mormonism and a response by Mormons engaging in the same evil is an example).

Now, it is ironic that man trying to start a race war in Europe chose to murder Socialists, rather than Muslims.

Not at all - he's a Nazi. Literally.

EDIT: well perhaps not literally - mudra points out this article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... im-fortuyn which is more subtle in it's explanation of his lunacy and racism.

Kirt

[kirtu]

this article is worth reading regarding Breivik (and others like him) in Europe's growing anti-Muslim sentiment. Shades of anti Jewish attitudes of the past.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/anders-behring-breivik-pim-fortuyn

Guardian forgets to mention that Breivik was a Mason,... Sorry!, It seems that they have taken it away and instead he is a Templar now. Before they said that Breivik had described himself in his Face book profile as a Mason and a christian. There was a picture of him in his Masonic dress in David Icke's website. But that was removed quite soon, for some reason or other ?!?
Now we have this http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/51392-the-rise-of-knights-templar-europe
His facebook profile has been removed but it is still in the Google archives, said rense.com one week ago.

Who knows? He's deranged and apparently loves uniforms (or at least pictures of himself in various uniforms and getup).

Kirt