China Detaines 300 Monks

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China Detaines 300 Monks

Postby purplelotus » Mon May 23, 2011 8:56 am

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ma ... na-sichuan

I thought people would want to read this article in today's Guardian newspaper (UK).
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Re: China Detaines 300 Monks

Postby ronnewmexico » Tue May 24, 2011 12:18 am

I have mentioned on this subject before and do again...this particular area has a long complex history of religious and ethnic strife.
Reference perhaps wikipedia and the sino tibetan war of the thirties(which inspired from issues in monastaries) and before that perhaps 1918 or so, that sino tibetan war.

The sino tibetan war of the 30's being resolved by the entrance into the fray by a warlord of muslim composition from another province fighting for the chinese central authority. And being a attack by Tibet, most historians attest.

This is a immensely complex history with many many nuances and requires much study to draw any conclusion.
Britian has not been a unknown or impartial player in these very exact conflicts.
Keep in mind perhaps the asian context of history involves a seemingly much longer view of things than the current historical approximation of what happened yesterday approximating history in the west.

This is not a simple issue nor as simple as evil communists destroying peaceful buddhists....it is very complex.
China is undoubtably performing heinous human rights violations in this area as we speak...but simple as displayed in the article...it simply is not.

As a aside...my personal observation is that chinese media represents generally chinese nationalistic intent and british media to a extent surpriseingly represents still the intent of British empire,(that being considered a dead entity to outsiders perhaps not so to certain insiders).

Fair honest reporting that really addresses the inceptions of these issues we will not find is my opinion.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: China Detaines 300 Monks

Postby purplelotus » Wed May 25, 2011 9:20 am

Whatever the "complex" situation regarding Tibetan soverignty the fact remains that millions of Tibetans have been murdered and brutalised. Their culture, religion and land has been decimated. If you really want to understand this read Ama Adhe's "the Voice that Remembers" and Palden Gyasto's "Fire under the Snow." The world has looked the other way despite all the efforts of His Holiness. Efforts are made to "liberate" the Iraquis and Libiyans but when is Tibet ever mentioned? As Douglas Herd (UK MP) said when interviewed on this subject "it is never going to happen." There is no profit in it for the west.

It is a criminal outrage and should elicit the strongest response from any human being regardless of squabbles over who was where first.

P
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Re: China Detaines 300 Monks

Postby Indrajala » Wed May 25, 2011 10:31 am

purplelotus wrote:Whatever the "complex" situation regarding Tibetan soverignty the fact remains that millions of Tibetans have been murdered and brutalised. Their culture, religion and land has been decimated. If you really want to understand this read Ama Adhe's "the Voice that Remembers" and Palden Gyasto's "Fire under the Snow." The world has looked the other way despite all the efforts of His Holiness. Efforts are made to "liberate" the Iraquis and Libiyans but when is Tibet ever mentioned? As Douglas Herd (UK MP) said when interviewed on this subject "it is never going to happen." There is no profit in it for the west.

It is a criminal outrage and should elicit the strongest response from any human being regardless of squabbles over who was where first.

P


I think everyone is well aware that the Tibetans have been brutalized by the Chinese state, but then facing up against China and threatening it would be disadvantageous both economically and militarily. The business elite have too much to lose, so a few statements are made in the hopes that China respects human rights, but little more.


Obama is well briefed and aware of the Tibetan situation, but obviously it isn't an issue for him or his administration.

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What is the solution? I don't know if there is one for the foreseeable future. Violence is out of the question. His Holiness has said to those Tibetans wanting to utilize violence that even if they wanted to, where would they get the arms and training? In any case, His Holiness is absolutely opposed to the use of violence.

In the meanwhile the Chinese state encourages Han Chinese to migrate into Tibet. The education system sinicizes younger generations. The same thing happened to Manchurians and Mongolians who historically didn't identify as Chinese, but now they do.

Sad thing is that even in a few decades if they were to introduce some kind of actual democracy, there would be too few Tibetans left to vote for Tibetan autonomy. Tibetan culture in Tibet will be a museum piece with the occasional "ethnic festival" made as a gesture to the successes of multi-ethnic harmony. Once you get the younger generations practising consumerism and playing video games, they'll not care about Tibetan Buddhism or Tibetan culture. The younger generations might speak Tibetan at home, but in school and work it'll be Mandarin. Another generation and they'll drop Tibetan altogether.

The same thing has happened elsewhere in the Chinese empire.
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Re: China Detaines 300 Monks

Postby ronnewmexico » Wed May 25, 2011 7:49 pm

I always find in comical when people in america voice such outrage on the chinese human right atrocities in Tibet(and elsewhere) when the US did and continue to do, exactly the same thing or worse to their native americans. Called manifest destiny I think it was.

Continues right up to this day. Unemployment on reservations, those blank spots of uninhabitable lands given so graciously to the natives with all the crop growing hospitable lands taken quite away....approximating 40% year in and year out minimum. Life expectancy rates severely depressed drug abuse alcoholism diabetes heart disease running rampant...all the characteristics of a beaten nation with culture ripped away and peoples stomped upon.
Prohibited from practicing their religious practices such as the ghost dance. Killed in fact some were for this practice. Taken to boarding schools where the children were forcibly kept and disallowed from even speakiing the native languages and indoctirinated with chrisitianity.
Allowed to vote equally about 50 or so years ago in most states. Want to see the only place in the US that has habitation without running water or electricity.....take but a drive on the road from gallup to fort defiance, maybe drive a couple of miles or so off the main highway and then take a look around to see how many houses have or do not telephone lines running to their habitations. Ask me perhaps if I may know of anyone living like that for all their lives where in desert a 30 minute drive must be ensued just to get water to drink and bathe. Generator...if one has the money I'd guess. Not killed outright not right now..no job, no prospects no hope...same thing different way by my take.

Yeah tell me all about China. How much easier it is to point a finger over there. And if anyone thinks 600 thousand dead Iraquis and the current situation is any sort of liberation.... I don't know what to say.

No one is denying human rights violations occur in china a heinous totalitarian regime that has not a trace of socialism to it, take a good look to a place called afghanistan if one is so inclinded. Last I heard the greatest removal of human rights is death as being dead one has no rights at all. Killed many innocents daily in this thing called war on terror(terrorist dead who knows why), drone strike it is called. As if a robot not the US is doing such things. Torture extraordinary rendition....no complaints about those things not hardly a one...to close to home it seems that strikes.

Tibet as is native america for americans certain part of palestine for palestine, and about a hundred other places in thw world gone...yes gone forever.
It's peoples have been displaced much more huan than Tibetans.....it can not return. Put to a open vote tibetan would not rule that place...more huan comprise it. RElocate...fat chance. Might as well expect americans to relocate out of native lands....not going to happen.
It is the propoganda I hate, as well as the human rights violations in all cases. If you seriously think the issue is being given fair play by newarticles such as these, simplistic pap for the masses to read believe and act upon.....you are not really looking around at this issue.

Raising voices...sure I agree. In fact what small amounts of money I may have for such thngs as this I may endeavor to assist with donation, and have in the past for many years. This and others.

The propoganda the half truths I can do without, totally without....that is about half of how peoples may continue to support such things.
Propoganda makes it easy. It is propoganda by and through is how these things happen.

So no preaching on this issue will I listen to. Propoganda isthe enemy from any or all sides, it is the false portrayal and simplistic views expressed of very complex issues that abuses misuses peoples and makes them tools to be used for agenda.
The end does not justify the means, hardly ever. Regardless of how pure the cause.
I express how complex this issue in this plaace is specific to the monasteries, what would it take for someone paid to do such to do so and thusly explain the exact real situation so we may then know not only of that but to believe when they rightly say human rights compromise is occuring.

You see.....if they mislead direction , make it simplistic or agenda driven...... regardless of how true the cause(and heinous action is certainly occuring from the chinese in this specific)....the baby is thrown out with the bathwater.
People(those reading those things), knowing or feeling such things may not be so simple will assume agenda and not believe the truths of the human rights violations.
The propogandists work to their own detriment in this regard.
So the truth must be told not simplistic pap.

If one wants to ever begin to end these things. The truth of things is always the first casuality of those advocating violence in things.
For reason. They cannot sustain if things are known to be what they are..always.

WE must educate ourselves entirely in these matters of state..if not we are part cause. Detriment is served to the issue with toleration of half truths ..nothing more than that.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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