Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Caz » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:07 pm

Fairly sad isnt it you'd hve thought after the war to end all wars people might have learnt. Then again what good can people learn from war other then more war and better methods for seeking their foes destruction...This self cherishing buisness is a real problem one man driven by thrist and desire to hold on to power butchers his own people and the other lot driven by greed and other factors use means of conflict and destruction to line their own pockets to try and quench their desires.
What madness ! this self-cherishing has got to go ! :tantrum:
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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Heruka » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:20 pm

conebeckham wrote:As I understand it, this is a UN action. The French, British, and others are participating as well.

I'm not for war. But I'm also not for an insane despot killing civilians, and hiring thugs and using his military's might to do so, just because the people want change and are willing to take to the streets in protest.

I'm not sure how I feel about all this, as I have limited info, of course....but I'm always amused when folks say this is "Obama's" war. It's not.



Yet the people are trying to get from underneath of the tyrannical Plutocracy of libya's past, only for them to fall into the hands of another plutarchy from the west.
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Re: Obama's Rightwing "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Malcolm » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:29 pm

Heruka wrote:
Namdrol wrote: a neoliberal, corporate lackey who believes in fantasies like "free markets" and so on; and who suckered the Democrats and other progressive by running on a platform of progressive promises he never intended to keep.



Yet demonstrates cronyism and not free market.



There is no such thing as a "free market" -- free markets don't exist, never existed, and never will exist. The present free market ideology of Ayn Rand, Milton Freedom, Hayek and so on is bankrupt and morally bereft. It is just another fatal and dangerous utopian fantasy like communism.
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Re: Obama's Rightwing "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Heruka » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:36 pm

Namdrol wrote: The present free market ideology of Ayn Rand, Milton Freedom, Hayek and so on is bankrupt and morally bereft. It is just another fatal and dangerous utopian fantasy like communism.


I agree with you using the words "present free market ideology". and the key word is present. Pre 1913 america was a free market system,not a perfect one though! however the rise of the present coporate personhood and the federal reserve's ( in fact a private bank cartel not federal at all) fiat ponzi fraud, no such free market exists today.
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Re: Obama's Rightwing "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Malcolm » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:42 pm

Heruka wrote:
Namdrol wrote: The present free market ideology of Ayn Rand, Milton Freedom, Hayek and so on is bankrupt and morally bereft. It is just another fatal and dangerous utopian fantasy like communism.


I agree with you using the words "present free market ideology". and the key word is present. Pre 1913 america was a free market system. however the rise of the present coporate personhood and the federal reserve's ( in fact a private bank cartel not federal at all) fiat ponzi fraud, no such free market exists today.



No it wasn't. Markets were controlled by moneyed interests and banksters then too. There has never been a free market, ever. For example, from 1863 to 1913, the US instituted as system of high tariffs on goods imported from Europe and so on.

Free market ideology is the very backbone of neo-liberalism. It is a fallacious doctrine, very damaging to the environment, and so on.
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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Heruka » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:07 pm

would be good topic to discuss, the merits/demerit of the Keynesian vs Austrian models of economics, i personally lean towards a individual libertarian Austrian "let the market set the value" system, rather than the gross manipulation of the other. Whether it is collectivism or capitalism, the banks get the loot.

I wonder whatever happened to code pink?
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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Heruka » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:09 pm

I also neglected to mention the predator drone attacks on pakistan in this expansion of military action by Obama.
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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Malcolm » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:33 pm

Heruka wrote:would be good topic to discuss, the merits/demerit of the Keynesian vs Austrian models of economics, i personally lean towards a individual libertarian Austrian "let the market set the value" system, rather than the gross manipulation of the other. Whether it is collectivism or capitalism, the banks get the loot.

I wonder whatever happened to code pink?



"Letting markets set values" is allowing the irrationality of impulse guide economic life. Limiting economic irrationality too much is not a good thing, and giving it total free reign is also not a good thing -- in the latter scenario, all that happens is the wealthy become wealthier and wealthier until the poor kill them and divide the spoils, beginning the cycle again.

There are always limitations on markets because out of control markets can be very socially disruptive.
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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Heruka » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:45 am

Namdrol wrote:
"Letting markets set values" is allowing the irrationality of impulse guide economic life.


quite the opposite, true market value is based on logic and not some mathmatical complex con of leverage. if we take the market today, it is enjoying a fixed playing field, of artificial interest rates and pumped in liquidity, and not its intrinsic true value, but a created inflationary leveraged bubble. your argument is based upon the rigged casino gulag of global markets by jp morgan, goldman sachs and so forth. mine is more local and decentralized market, to hell with globalism, where the price of milk is set by the local farmer, and if another farmer lowers his price to compete, the buyer wins.


There are always limitations on markets because out of control markets can be very socially disruptive.


I agree.
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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Heruka » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:15 am

No Fly Zone means Bombing Campain

nice use of double speak.
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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Malcolm » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:22 am

Heruka wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
"Letting markets set values" is allowing the irrationality of impulse guide economic life.


quite the opposite, true market value is based on logic and not some mathmatical complex con of leverage. if we take the market today, it is enjoying a fixed playing field, of artificial interest rates and pumped in liquidity, and not its intrinsic true value, but a created inflationary leveraged bubble. your argument is based upon the rigged casino gulag of global markets by jp morgan, goldman sachs and so forth. mine is more local and decentralized market, to hell with globalism, where the price of milk is set by the local farmer, and if another farmer lowers his price to compete, the buyer wins.


There are always limitations on markets because out of control markets can be very socially disruptive.


I agree.



Decentralization requires regional controls (tariffs and so on) to prevent market marauders from upsetting local exchanges and always has -- for example, corn dumped on mexico after NAFTA that forced 50,000 small farms to close, forcing people off the land into cities, then subjecting them to higher corn prices due to upward price pressure from ethanol production making it impossible for them to ever return to their farms and make a living because the investment is now too high, now that they have lost their traditional farms.

So you see, markets are not logical, they are not intelligent, and require regulation and maintenance to function beneficially.

Second, there is no such thing as intrinsic true value -- all value is conventional and imputed (can't believe I have to point this out to a Buddhist).

The reason why neo-liberal/neo-conservative free market ideology ala Austrian school is dangerous is that it eschews all market controls anywhere to ensure that market marauders can always take profits anywhere it is convenient for them to do so.

N
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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Heruka » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:51 am

from my uneducated understanding,

tariffs are an extension of the law of admiralty, to regulate commerce, since most commerce is done by shipping, and then onto land, the law of admiralty continues along with the "vessel" on land, i.e. by truck ( thats why you have insurance ). the ancient law of mortgage and lien, means the owner, or loaner i.e. the bank, has 100% lien on the goods, the money, the vessel etc, the tariff means the loaner, makes money at both ends, from the purchase and the sell.

the central banks control commerce, and they by definition of the law of admiralty, remain offshore. BTW when i say offshore i mean the "district of columbia", or the "square mile" of london, or "vatican city" or "wall street".

but we already see that the central banks are the problem.
Last edited by Heruka on Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Heruka » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:02 am

Namdrol wrote:Second, there is no such thing as intrinsic true value -- all value is conventional and imputed (can't believe I have to point this out to a Buddhist).


N


the intrinsic value is its conventional value, its leverage value is its imputed value......

we can agree a conventional base value by some arbitary reference point, its weight, size and so on. silver for instance has a base value by its troyness and its purity and so on, its imputed projected value is based on future sales on the market. since the imputed projected price is what is traded and sold, its imputed value is inflated or deflated in day to day trading, but its rareness and conventional value, slowly and steadly increases.

most old ladies at a supermarket are not buddhists, they only know food prices have risen 30% under globalization.
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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Heruka » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:47 am




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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:06 am

Isn't it funny how Americans have made the terms liberal and conservative have the same meaning just by adding a neo- before them? In Australia there are two major political parties (which once had very seperate ideologies) the Australian Labour Party (socialist politics) and the Liberal party (free market politics). The socialists had a radical social agenda whilst the free marketeers had a conservative social agenda.

In America both the major parites are free marketers, just that the Democrats seem to have a more radical social agenda. Seem to. So I guess that makes the Democrats social liberals AND economic liberals and the Republican party social conservatives and economic liberals. Of course it is almost impossible to seperate the social from the economic so the outcome is the current American reality.

On a more humorous note the word Democrat (from Greek) and the word Republican (from Latin) both actually have exactly the same meaning. Democracy is the Greek word for republic, in Greece we do not use/have the term republic because we use/have the term democracy.

So the next time you go to vote in America you are now aware of the fact that, in reality, you are voting for the same thing either way! :tongue: (I can assure you, the same thing stands for all of the worlds "two party democracies").
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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Malcolm » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:02 pm

Heruka wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Second, there is no such thing as intrinsic true value -- all value is conventional and imputed (can't believe I have to point this out to a Buddhist).


N


the intrinsic value is its conventional value, its leverage value is its imputed value......

we can agree a conventional base value by some arbitary reference point, its weight, size and so on. silver for instance has a base value by its troyness and its purity and so on, its imputed projected value is based on future sales on the market. since the imputed projected price is what is traded and sold, its imputed value is inflated or deflated in day to day trading, but its rareness and conventional value, slowly and steadly increases.

most old ladies at a supermarket are not buddhists, they only know food prices have risen 30% under globalization.


The solution to globalization is not an ideology that informs it. The solution to globalization lies in the dismantling of corporatism, the establishment of bioregional governments, separate currencies in these regions (i.e. no world dollar), managed trade between them and so on.

As for intrinsic value, this is an incorrect term. What you mean is a standard value. That is also an imputation since it cannot be fixed.

N
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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Malcolm » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:06 pm

Hi Gfreg:

The term neo-liberal is not an American term. It has only been recently employed US discourse. It was formerly used primarily outside the united states to refer to the new liberalization of international trade under the WTO. Neo-liberalism is term used to describe neo-conservative free market corporatist ideology.





gregkavarnos wrote:Isn't it funny how Americans have made the terms liberal and conservative have the same meaning just by adding a neo- before them? In Australia there are two major political parties (which once had very seperate ideologies) the Australian Labour Party (socialist politics) and the Liberal party (free market politics). The socialists had a radical social agenda whilst the free marketeers had a conservative social agenda.

In America both the major parites are free marketers, just that the Democrats seem to have a more radical social agenda. Seem to. So I guess that makes the Democrats social liberals AND economic liberals and the Republican party social conservatives and economic liberals. Of course it is almost impossible to seperate the social from the economic so the outcome is the current American reality.

On a more humorous note the word Democrat (from Greek) and the word Republican (from Latin) both actually have exactly the same meaning. Democracy is the Greek word for republic, in Greece we do not use/have the term republic because we use/have the term democracy.

So the next time you go to vote in America you are now aware of the fact that, in reality, you are voting for the same thing either way! :tongue: (I can assure you, the same thing stands for all of the worlds "two party democracies").
:namaste:
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Malcolm » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:11 pm

Heruka wrote:from my uneducated understanding,

tariffs are an extension of the law of admiralty, to regulate commerce, since most commerce is done by shipping, and then onto land, the law of admiralty continues along with the "vessel" on land, i.e. by truck ( thats why you have insurance ). the ancient law of mortgage and lien, means the owner, or loaner i.e. the bank, has 100% lien on the goods, the money, the vessel etc, the tariff means the loaner, makes money at both ends, from the purchase and the sell.

the central banks control commerce, and they by definition of the law of admiralty, remain offshore. BTW when i say offshore i mean the "district of columbia", or the "square mile" of london, or "vatican city" or "wall street".

but we already see that the central banks are the problem.


Historically, perhaps but since the establishment of the US, tariffs have been the means whereby the US protected it's fledging economy from the kind of commodity dumping the sparked the original Tea Party (remember, the East India Tea Company obtained permission to dump tea on the colonies at a much cheaper price than they were allowed to sell their tea for in England).

Farming in the US was healthy until Butz changed the structure of farm subsidies in the 1970's. America was wealthy until Reagan.

Now 400 people own as much wealth as 150 million Americans. Sickening.

N
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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Jikan » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:40 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
In America both the major parites are free marketers, just that the Democrats seem to have a more radical social agenda. Seem to. So I guess that makes the Democrats social liberals AND economic liberals and the Republican party social conservatives and economic liberals. Of course it is almost impossible to seperate the social from the economic so the outcome is the current American reality.

<snip>

So the next time you go to vote in America you are now aware of the fact that, in reality, you are voting for the same thing either way! :tongue: (I can assure you, the same thing stands for all of the worlds "two party democracies").
:namaste:


You're generally correct, but it would be more accurate to say that the Democrats are capital-L liberals with a less reactionary social policy than the Republicans, some of whom still have a problem with interracial marriage (as evidenced by the "Obamar's not a Real American" meme). The center of gravity in the Democratic party is to the right of most European conservative parties.
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Re: Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:47 pm

Namdrol wrote:The term neo-liberal is not an American term. It has only been recently employed US discourse. It was formerly used primarily outside the united states to refer to the new liberalization of international trade under the WTO. Neo-liberalism is term used to describe neo-conservative free market corporatist ideology.
I am well aware of this, I was being faecetious. Neo-liberalism was one of the reasons my family and I left New Zealand as economic migrants to Australia in the late 1980's, and from Australia to Europe during the mid 1990's. Economic neo-liberalism (enforced by the Pan-Hellenic Socialist Party) is the main reason Greece is going down the tubes as we speak. Now I know why my girlfriend is taking tango lessons: in preparation for the Argentinian style economic reality Greece is about to experience.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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