The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Clarence » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:21 am

Yes, Knotty, I find Indrajala's comments rather hateful and ignorant. And, truth be told, I don't know whether I agree with providing him a platform for his hate-speech.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Indrajala » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:54 am

rory wrote:You are the one who assumed that Roman clergy officiated due to your internalized bias that marriages are performed by priests. Ancient Rome equally had priestesses which the Christian West radically rejected until the 20th century.


It isn't a bias. It is just my ignorance of Roman history.

In any case, Roman clergy and the state were not exactly separate entities. Both in the Republic and Imperial periods, the state and religion went hand in hand.


Actually we do: Emperor Nero was married 3 times to men in a full Roman marriage.


He was also a complete lunatic and not really representative of any commonly accepted norms, especially with respect to marriage.


Roman marriage was was not a state matter, and same-sex marriages that occurred were treated by society as marriage.


Really? Inheritance, adoption and so on were not necessarily presided over by courts and state paperwork of any kind? Even when something was disputed did the courts not get involved?



Anyway Ven. Indrajala it's your social Confucianism that objects to gay marriage, Buddhism has nothing to do with it.


Classical Buddhist literature neither has nothing to say about gay marriage for the simple fact it didn't exist in any noteworthy way throughout the centuries.


Have you had to advise a lesbian who is dating a man to please her parents that this is wrong and she will regret it?


This is different from state sanction of same sex marriage.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Indrajala » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:56 am

Clarence wrote:Yes, Knotty, I find Indrajala's comments rather hateful and ignorant. And, truth be told, I don't know whether I agree with providing him a platform for his hate-speech.


It is not hate speech nor is it hateful. I want what is best for western societies, and I feel the state sanctioning same sex marriages will lead to many unnecessary problems down the road.

If you disagree with me, fine, but no need to advocate censorship of opinions you find disagreeable.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Malcolm » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:08 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Clarence wrote:Yes, Knotty, I find Indrajala's comments rather hateful and ignorant. And, truth be told, I don't know whether I agree with providing him a platform for his hate-speech.


It is not hate speech nor is it hateful. I want what is best for western societies, and I feel the state sanctioning same sex marriages will lead to many unnecessary problems down the road.

If you disagree with me, fine, but no need to advocate censorship of opinions you find disagreeable.


You are advocating repression, that is why people find your speech hateful.

Like all bigots, you have no rational basis for your claims. You might as well be saying that christians should not marry jews.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Simon E. » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:11 pm

I think your thinking are on this issue is poorly formed and curiously immature, as well as lacking empathy and compassion Indrajala.

But I think you have the right to express it.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Malcolm » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:13 pm

Simon E. wrote:I think your thinking are on this issue is poorly formed and curiously immature, as well as lacking empathy and compassion Indrajala.

But I think you have the right to express it.


Sure, has a total right to make himself look like an idiot. Maybe he can get a gig as fox news pet buddhist monk.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Indrajala » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:14 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:I think that many of those who oppose marriage equality live in a bubble where they do not know any gay families. I too know a lesbian couple with kids. Their family is no different in its joys and challenges to that of any straight couple I know.


I have friends who are gay or lesbian. One is happily (and legally) married.

Nevertheless, I still believe sanctioning homosexual marriages is ultimately unwise for a number of reasons which I've outlined at length already.

I have nothing against homosexuality. I just feel it unwise to provide marriage rights to same sex couples.

For the record, I will note, I don't believe in human rights or equal rights. I understand these are sacred cows to many people here, but I don't see them as such.

Human rights are often used by some countries to bully their opponents before committing the same sins they accuse others of. Just look at the USA. It cries out about human rights violations, yet American leadership has slain immeasurable civilians in recent decades, often on false intelligence.

I also don't believe in equal rights for the simple fact that, as in nature, there is hierarchy in human society and clearly not everyone is equal in terms of intellect, power and so on. I think trying to superimpose "equality" on any society is an artificial albeit hopeful attempt at crafting an ultimately infeasible utopia. In actual practice there never are equal rights. Better to recognize this rather than pretend otherwise. Also, empowering the majority of a given population is unwise as it leads to dispersion of political authority, thereby leading to political deadlock. Polybius discusses this at length.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Indrajala » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:Like all bigots, you have no rational basis for your claims. You might as well be saying that christians should not marry jews.


If this were so, what rational basis is there for claiming same sex couples should be able to marry?

If we are all just basing our arguments on our feelings and opinions, then nobody can claim a rational basis.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Indrajala » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:Sure, has a total right to make himself look like an idiot. Maybe he can get a gig as fox news pet buddhist monk.


Why is it that you constantly resort to ad hominem attacks?
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Malcolm » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:17 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Knotty Veneer wrote:I think that many of those who oppose marriage equality live in a bubble where they do not know any gay families. I too know a lesbian couple with kids. Their family is no different in its joys and challenges to that of any straight couple I know.


I have friends who are gay or lesbian. One is happily (and legally) married.

Nevertheless, I still believe sanctioning homosexual marriages is ultimately unwise for a number of reasons which I've outlined at length already.

I have nothing against homosexuality. I just feel it unwise to provide marriage rights to same sex couples.

For the record, I will note, I don't believe in human rights or equal rights. I understand these are sacred cows to many people here, but I don't see them as such.

Human rights are often used by some countries to bully their opponents before committing the same sins they accuse others of. Just look at the USA. It cries out about human rights violations, yet American leadership has slain immeasurable civilians in recent decades, often on false intelligence.

I also don't believe in equal rights for the simple fact that, as in nature, there is hierarchy in human society and clearly not everyone is equal in terms of intellect, power and so on. I think trying to superimpose "equality" on any society is an artificial albeit hopeful attempt at crafting an ultimately infeasible utopia. In actual practice there never are equal rights. Better to recognize this rather than pretend otherwise. Also, empowering the majority of a given population is unwise as it leads to dispersion of political authority, thereby leading to political deadlock. Polybius discusses this at length.



You clearly have no idea what equal rights are. As soon as you lose yours, you will want them back.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Seishin » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:31 pm

Indrajala wrote:Nevertheless, I still believe sanctioning homosexual marriages is ultimately unwise for a number of reasons which I've outlined at length already.

I'm still vague as to why it's against the cosmos? :shrug:

Indrajala wrote:There are principles in time and the cosmos that must be considered, observed and followed lest you suffer for it. In the absence of historical norms for a given policy reform, you are basically deviating from all previous norms. Disregarding such a fact is critically unwise.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Malcolm » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:47 pm

Seishin wrote:
Indrajala wrote:Nevertheless, I still believe sanctioning homosexual marriages is ultimately unwise for a number of reasons which I've outlined at length already.

I'm still vague as to why it's against the cosmos? :shrug:

Indrajala wrote:There are principles in time and the cosmos that must be considered, observed and followed lest you suffer for it. In the absence of historical norms for a given policy reform, you are basically deviating from all previous norms. Disregarding such a fact is critically unwise.



Didn't you know? "Marriage is between one man and one woman" was actually etched into the fabric of the universe. We erase this at our peril. Gay marriage is apparently going to cause the entire fabric of the universe to unwind, it makes peak oil look like a stroll in the park.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Indrajala » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:58 pm

Seishin wrote:I'm still vague as to why it's against the cosmos? :shrug:


It deviates from historical norms to the point of being extreme and unprecedented.

To say it goes against principles of the cosmos is just to say it is contrary to established observable norms in the cosmos which is humanity and nature.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Malcolm » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Like all bigots, you have no rational basis for your claims. You might as well be saying that christians should not marry jews.


If this were so, what rational basis is there for claiming same sex couples should be able to marry?

If we are all just basing our arguments on our feelings and opinions, then nobody can claim a rational basis.


I have explained this already -- so, I will explain it again.

Marriage is a govt. sanctioned institution. It confers certain rights onto people who marry (that's why you need a license to do it) to that unmarried people do not enjoy. Since gay people who are in long term committed relationships are denied those same rights as heterosexuals because they are denied the right of marriage, this amounts to civil rights discrimination.

Since you have famously declared you don't believe in "rights" (though why a Canadian monk imagines he will be invited into the elite to help rule the world is beyond anyone's imagination), I imagine that this point will, as it has in the past, fall on deaf ears.

Secondly, there is no evidence that heterosexual parents are any better at raising children then gay parents. So there is no reason to deny gay men and women the right to raise children (in fact same sex oriented people have been raising children for as long as there has been humans, apparently to no ill effect).

So in the end, your arguments against gay marriage are biased and irrational, which is why they make you a bigot in this respect. Certainly, you can find a sanctuary safe from gay marriage in Uganda or Kenya where they routinely slaughter people for their gender preference, but I don't think you really want to live in such countries where they will probably mistake you for being gay as well.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Indrajala » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:On this score, you are being an idiot.


This is just an insult and hardly contributes to the discussion.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Malcolm » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:03 pm

Indrajala wrote:It deviates from historical norms to the point of being extreme and unprecedented.


This is total nonsense. As has been pointed out there are no historical norms when it comes to "marriage" and "families" across the broad swath of humanity.

But gay marriage is a natural out growth of the type of democracy we have in the west, it is a civil rights issue, and it naturally flows from the civil rights movement (which of course you don't believe in, since you don't believe in rights).

In this case you are just pissing against the wind, and like all people who piss against the wind, you only soil your own clothes.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Malcolm » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:04 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Malcolm wrote:On this score, you are being an idiot.


This is just an insult and hardly contributes to the discussion.


You may feel insulted, I think you have left your senses on this on. Where you normally are clear headed and rational, I think you are being an idiot on this issue. So be insulted. I not only am allowed to think you are being an idiot, I am even allowed to say so. When you stop being an idiot, I will stop thinking you are being one, and addressing you as such, i.e., when you have returned to your senses.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Clarence » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:05 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Clarence wrote:Yes, Knotty, I find Indrajala's comments rather hateful and ignorant. And, truth be told, I don't know whether I agree with providing him a platform for his hate-speech.


It is not hate speech nor is it hateful. I want what is best for western societies, and I feel the state sanctioning same sex marriages will lead to many unnecessary problems down the road.

If you disagree with me, fine, but no need to advocate censorship of opinions you find disagreeable.


Actually, it is hateful. And the fact that you say you want what is best for western societies, while arguing against equal rights for gay couples, is truly offensive.

I did not advocate censoring you. Read again. I put plenty of qualifiers in my post.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby Malcolm » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:08 pm

Clarence wrote:
Actually, it is hateful. And the fact that you say you want what is best for western societies, while arguing against equal rights for gay couples, is truly offensive.


Actually, Jeff does not believe in rights for anyone, he stated so a few posts back. He does not even believe that he has "equal rights" or "human rights", even though of course his ability to spew the nonsense he has been spewing lately is possible because he has both.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Postby mañjughoṣamaṇi » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:09 pm

Indrajala wrote:If you disagree with me, fine, but no need to advocate censorship of opinions you find disagreeable.


Why? You've already established you don't believe in "rights"? Or was that just for the non-elect like those uppity feminists, dirty gays, and anyone without your deep understanding of the cosmological order?
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