Critique of "jhana among Western converts"

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
KevinSolway
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby KevinSolway » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:26 pm


KevinSolway
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby KevinSolway » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:30 pm


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David N. Snyder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:09 pm

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KevinSolway
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby KevinSolway » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:17 pm


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David N. Snyder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:26 pm

You have not made any logical or rational arguments against the idea of rebirth. Your only appeal has been to straw men and red herrings, which you claim you do not do. You deny that Buddha even existed. Then there is no point to look at anything in Buddhism including the Pali Canon which is permeated with talk about a person known as Buddha, the awakened one. If Buddha said he was named Steve in this life, died and then got reborn in Guatemala and was named Pedro. You would say that is metaphorical and he meant that he legally changed his name in court and moved to Guatemala.

There is no argument to counter, because you have made no argument.
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DAWN
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby DAWN » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:09 pm

Pedro :lol: :D

:popcorn:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:51 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:58 pm


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Ben
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ben » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:53 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

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KevinSolway
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby KevinSolway » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:13 am


KevinSolway
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby KevinSolway » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:34 am


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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:46 am


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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:47 am

Mr. Solway, after reading this entire conversation, I am left with little more than bewilderment. I don't mind if you reject rebirth or supply another explanation for becoming. It's your prerogative and you have the right to think what you wish.

You do not, however, have the right to redefine and reinterpret terms and concepts on the fly for no other reason than to provide justification for your personal beliefs. You have provided literally no scholarly evidence, either linguistically, historically, or philosophically, to suggest that your reading of rebirth is accurate; moreover, you've painted yourself into a corner in that you are attempting to refer to the suttas while attacking their legitimacy, relying on a reinterpretation of traditional Buddhist terminology while arguing that such terminology as it is understood historically is completely flawed. Why are you so interested in discussing any sutta passages or Buddhist teachings if you also desire to make it clear that they are epistemologically invalid? What are you hoping to accomplish?

If you believe that you have directly understood the nature of rebirth and becoming, that's fine, but I simply cannot believe that you can read the scriptures of the Theravada and honestly see anything but literal rebirth. So I'm going to ask you directly: do you believe that someone who did not have a preconceived notion that led them to search for evidence of non-physical rebirth would come to see that all of these statements, statements that have been seen as unequivocally referring to literal rebirth for twenty-five hundred years, and come to your conclusion? And if that is the case, do you think that the Buddha intentionally taught in such a way as to confuse and mislead others?
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:18 am


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David N. Snyder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:41 am

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KevinSolway
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby KevinSolway » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:31 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:54 am


KevinSolway
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby KevinSolway » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:00 am

Last edited by KevinSolway on Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ben
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ben » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:06 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
David N. Snyder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:06 am

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