Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marriage

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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Indrajala » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:46 am

Pre-industrial societies are between 80~90% agrarian, which means most of the population would not have had careers in the cities and towns.

Even if you were in a craft guild or were a banker, you still didn't have a 'career' as we would understand it now. It was a trade. This applied to men and women.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby greentara » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:59 am

rory, Thanks for the interesting input "mine were North European Jews, they couldn't be peasants nor could they be nobles in early Medieval Europe, so they were peddlars, traders, rabbis, small bankers (men and women), doctors, scholars, gem dealers, actors. You name it. But always literacy and education were emphazied for men and women. They had businesses and would look on a being a farmer as the worst possible life"
Reading wikipedia its plain to see that Jews were not allowed to own land in Europe and only had a few limited trades to choose from to make a living and support their families.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby rory » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:47 am

Greentara happy to share: here's a nice link on medieval jewish women doctors.
wa.org/encyclopedia/article/doctors-medieval
Women in medieval times had occupations and some professions. (gee is a profession or an occupation a career;-).
http://www.ozedweb.com/history/middle_a ... arkets.htm There were brewers and weavers, spinners and dyers, and the 'happy' life of the female peasant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Middle_Ages THis is from PIers Plowman:

Burdened with children and landlords' rent;
What they can put aside from what they make spinning they spend on housing,
Also on milk and meal to make porridge with
To sate their children who cry out for food
And they themselves also suffer much hunger,
And woe in wintertime, and waking up nights
To rise on the bedside to rock the cradle,
Also to card and comb wool, to patch and to wash,
To rub flax and reel yarn and to peel rushes
That it is pity to describe or show in rhyme
The woe of these women who live in huts;"[10]

yeah bad feminism took us away from all this;-)
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Luke » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:42 am

justsit wrote:Seriously, though, where does this disdain for women come from? Traumatic potty training? Overbearing mommies? Stood up by a date for the senior prom? No "sex on demand?" I'd really like to know - it makes no sense to me. Do men really feel threatened??

You pose your question in a very insulting way, but if you are seriously interested, you might find this interview with Dr. Helen Smith, the author of "Men On Strike," interesting. She expresses very well the feelings which many men have nowadays.

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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Indrajala » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:13 am

Luke wrote:You pose your question in a very insulting way, but if you are seriously interested, you might find this interview with Dr. Helen Smith, the author of "Men On Strike," interesting. She expresses very well the feelings which many men have nowadays.


Thank you. That was a good interview and to the point.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Zhen Li » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:29 pm

rory wrote:THis is from PIers Plowman:

Burdened with children and landlords' rent;
What they can put aside from what they make spinning they spend on housing,
Also on milk and meal to make porridge with
To sate their children who cry out for food
And they themselves also suffer much hunger,
And woe in wintertime, and waking up nights
To rise on the bedside to rock the cradle,
Also to card and comb wool, to patch and to wash,
To rub flax and reel yarn and to peel rushes
That it is pity to describe or show in rhyme
The woe of these women who live in huts;"[10]

yeah bad feminism took us away from all this;-)
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No one took that away, it's the same today. :rolling:
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:08 pm

Indrajala wrote:
WASW wrote:Yes- but I am questioning the idea that there are "unintelligent masses" who require the (quite cynical and manipulative, in this view) existence of institutions that are sanctioned by religions to keep them stable?


The masses are generally unintelligent and unable to properly look after themselves.


There is no such thing as "the masses".
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:10 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Countries which perpetually let people make the wrong decisions end up like India or worse.


Seems like you are more than halfway to fascism. People have an innate right to screw up their lives.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Indrajala » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Indrajala wrote:
Countries which perpetually let people make the wrong decisions end up like India or worse.


Seems like you are more than halfway to fascism. People have an innate right to screw up their lives.


In India people constantly make all the wrong decisions, like building a new house with no toilet inside or out because they think it will pollute them, and the fact nobody feels humble enough to clean it (not even their own). So, they defecate outside in public, and preventable diseases spread. They screw their own lives over and those of many other people. This is one example where hard handed political measures are necessary to overcome damaging behavior on the part of unintelligent commoners. India lacks the capacity and political will to do this, which is why half a billion people or more defecate in public around the subcontinent.

So, no people do not have an innate right to screw up their lives when their community suffers as a result.

I'm actually heavily inclined to Confucian political values after reading Chinese history and philosophy somewhat extensively (minus of course the obligatory animal sacrifice if you strictly follow the Li-ji 禮記). This means a strong and well-educated leadership and hierarchy is in place to solve pressing problems and enforce proper behavior on the lower classes whether they like it or not. The leadership takes into account good advice ideally and exercises the five constant virtues (humaneness, due-giving, propriety, wisdom, and trust). State officials might need to act as parental figures to untamed people if they fail to behave like civilized human beings, but it is for their own good ultimately.

Such political arrangements worked very well in China, Korea and Japan, producing in pre-modern times societies which were rather stable over the long-term. Arguably Singapore's early leadership had a similar philosophy and it worked very well for them. Likewise, modern Japan and Korea are safe, clean, efficient and well-ordered societies founded on Confucian and Buddhist values. Taiwan is not far behind.

These societies do not suffer the same problems we do with respect to narcotics, juvenile delinquency and street crime. Such behavior is stamped out and rightfully so.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:01 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Indrajala wrote:
Countries which perpetually let people make the wrong decisions end up like India or worse.


Seems like you are more than halfway to fascism. People have an innate right to screw up their lives.


In India people constantly make all the wrong decisions, like building a new house with no toilet inside or out because they think it will pollute them, and the fact nobody feels humble enough to clean it (not even their own). So, they defecate outside in public, and preventable diseases spread. They screw their own lives over and those of many other people. This is one example where hard handed political measures are necessary to overcome damaging behavior on the part of unintelligent commoners. India lacks the capacity and political will to do this, which is why half a billion people or more defecate in public around the subcontinent.



Dude, the toilets in Asia everywhere are abysmal. Some of the foulest toilets I have ever encountered were in Japan. The Japanese think nothing of littering their forests with cigarette cartons, beer cans, etc.


So, no people do not have an innate right to screw up their lives when their community suffers as a result.


Yes, they do, if their culture does not perceive it as a problem.

I'm actually heavily inclined to Confucian political values after reading Chinese history and philosophy somewhat extensively (minus of course the obligatory animal sacrifice if you strictly follow the Li-ji 禮記). This means a strong and well-educated leadership and hierarchy is in place to solve pressing problems and enforce proper behavior on the lower classes whether they like it or not. The leadership takes into account good advice ideally and exercises the five constant virtues (humaneness, due-giving, propriety, wisdom, and trust). State officials might need to act as parental figures to untamed people if they fail to behave like civilized human beings, but it is for their own good ultimately.


I see, so you believe in the Strict Parent State after all. Good luck with that. It led to Mao.

Such political arrangements worked very well in China, Korea and Japan, producing in pre-modern times societies which were rather stable over the long-term.


Seriously? What nonsense.

Likewise, modern Japan and Korea are safe, clean, efficient and well-ordered societies founded on Confucian and Buddhist values. Taiwan is not far behind.


And Indian cities, by and large, are dirty, dangerous and squalid, and always have been. It is their culture. Not ours. We can visit and enjoy it or hate it, but it is not our business to tell them what to do or how to run their country.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Indrajala » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:Dude, the toilets in Asia everywhere are abysmal. Some of the foulest toilets I have ever encountered were in Japan. The Japanese think nothing of littering their forests with cigarette cartons, beer cans, etc.


Your experience is rather different from mine.


So, no people do not have an innate right to screw up their lives when their community suffers as a result.


Yes, they do, if their culture does not perceive it as a problem.


Infanticide, sati and child marriages might not be seen as a problem, but they should be halted and made criminal.


I see, so you believe in the Strict Parent State after all. Good luck with that. It led to Mao.


No, poverty, desperation and decades of civil war led to Mao. The civil religion of communism led more to Mao than Confucian values.

Such political arrangements worked very well in China, Korea and Japan, producing in pre-modern times societies which were rather stable over the long-term.


Seriously? What nonsense.
\

You don't think the relatively good standard of living and social stability of the Tang dynasty was remarkable given the age?


And Indian cities, by and large, are dirty, dangerous and squalid, and always have been. It is their culture. Not ours. We can visit and enjoy it or hate it, but it is not our business to tell them what to do or how to run their country.


It is virtuous to introduce civilized values and principles of hygiene as it will alleviate suffering and save lives. To argue otherwise is immoral.

The British did more good than harm in India. It is a shame they had to leave.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:38 pm

Indrajala wrote:Infanticide, sati and child marriages might not be seen as a problem, but they should be halted and made criminal.


Infanticide, child marriage and so on existed in your Fantasy Sino-Japanese realm too.




I see, so you believe in the Strict Parent State after all. Good luck with that. It led to Mao.


No, poverty, desperation and decades of civil war led to Mao. The civil religion of communism led more to Mao than Confucian values.


Russia would up with Stalin because of the cultural precedent set by the Czarist absolutest state, likewise, China, another historically absolutest state, wound with Mao.



Such political arrangements worked very well in China, Korea and Japan, producing in pre-modern times societies which were rather stable over the long-term.


Seriously? What nonsense.
\

You don't think the relatively good standard of living and social stability of the Tang dynasty was remarkable given the age?


I don't think it was that stable.


And Indian cities, by and large, are dirty, dangerous and squalid, and always have been. It is their culture. Not ours. We can visit and enjoy it or hate it, but it is not our business to tell them what to do or how to run their country.


It is virtuous to introduce civilized values and principles of hygiene as it will alleviate suffering and save lives. To argue otherwise is immoral.


Indian culture is very hygenic and civilized, actually. They suffer from overpopulation in the north. The squalid nature of India has many causes, mostly colonial.

The British did more good than harm in India. It is a shame they had to leave.


Your paternalist attitudes towards those whom you regard as your inferiors is duly noted.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Nighthawk » Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:17 pm

justsit wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:... Mainly on the point that feminism is to blame for the high divorce rate in western countries. Truth can be hard to swallow sometimes.


Something here is hard to swallow, for sure.

Of course, the high divorce rate has nothing to do with men who can't keep it in their pants, and leave their wives of 20-30-40 years for young floozies. No, or course not. It's them damn uppity women.


Never said it has nothing ever to do with men, but women aren't the precious innocent angels that are never at fault either.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Nighthawk » Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:19 pm

justsit wrote:Oh yeah, they're out there, just called by a different name. I was being polite.

Seriously, though, where does this disdain for women come from? Traumatic potty training? Overbearing mommies? Stood up by a date for the senior prom? No "sex on demand?" I'd really like to know - it makes no sense to me. Do men really feel threatened??


Feel threatened by what? I have a lot of respect for women with self dignity and respect.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Jikan » Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:26 pm

justsit wrote:Do men really feel threatened??


Some do. Grownups tend not to.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Zhen Li » Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:51 pm

Russia would up with Stalin because of the cultural precedent set by the Czarist absolutest state, likewise, China, another historically absolutest state, wound with Mao.

One is demotist (claiming the state as the embodiment of a general will) and progressive thinking, tending to chaos (varying from ordered to unordered chaos), the other is reactionary (claiming the state to be the Emperor's personal property) conservative, and tending to order.

As for colonialism, it's hardly black or white. Some things the British helped with, others they misunderstood and acted with poor calculation. My proposal for such things is, assuming there were states that clearly did things properly, tending to more order and better standards of living, they could hire out advisors to underdeveloped countries who would be given the authority to govern or advise in varying degrees for a fee. An example would be the Condominium of Egypt-Sudan, which wasn't strictly speaking a British colony, it was Ottoman, but run for them by the British, and did particularly well under Evelyn Baring, 1st Earl of Cromer's leadership. Similarly we might look to the non-colonial modernization efforts of Britain, France and the US in Thailand and Japan.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby justsit » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:38 pm

Luke wrote:
justsit wrote:Seriously, though, where does this disdain for women come from? Traumatic potty training? Overbearing mommies? Stood up by a date for the senior prom? No "sex on demand?" I'd really like to know - it makes no sense to me. Do men really feel threatened??

You pose your question in a very insulting way, but if you are seriously interested, you might find this interview with Dr. Helen Smith, the author of "Men On Strike," interesting. She expresses very well the feelings which many men have nowadays


Not trying to insult anyone, nor are they even my ideas - these are classic Freudian causes of neurosis (shame, powerlessness, rejection). Just trying to suss out what is really going on behind the rhetoric.

The person in the video made some important points, yes. There is no doubt that the world is becoming more feminized. Frankly, it's about time. Men - and in the West, particularly white men - have run the world for millenia. We need a more balanced approach, as both men and women have unique perspectives and wisdom to offer.

I also think part of the problem is that as men's roles evolve and change, many men aren't sure exactly what it means to be a man in the 21st century. The days when men worked in fields and did heavy labor, fought bravely in battle, brought home the bacon and kept the little woman at home, are mostly gone. Economics and politics have forced these changes. And now the door is open for women, gays, people of color, and all the former underclasses to come to the table. If they are accepted with open hearts, and we can learn to work together instead of against each other, we may be able to make a better world.
If we are willing, we can get past our fears and really put the Buddhist teachings on self/other into practice. Maybe a little tonglen would help.

I'm sure there are a number of posters here who will not agree with me. That's OK. We're all just confused beings.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Zhen Li » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:54 pm

Economics and politics have forced these changes. And now the door is open for women, gays, people of color, and all the former underclasses to come to the table.

Women ran stuff at all sorts of occasions. It's just more often men, this is just how things are. Even when women have the opportunities to take more active positions in the world, it's still going to be a smaller percentage. People should just do what they want to do. There will always be jobs that men do better, and women do better. We shouldn't make equal what isn't, men and women are very different in terms of brain wiring and chemistry, men are back-front oriented and women are left-right oriented. I don't think that women should not partake in jobs they want to, certainly they should, but they should be evaluated equally - if it implies any kind of affirmative action then that's pretty immoral, and it can harm women who aren't fit for certain roles (e.g. only the burliest and most testosterone-rich women are as efficient as men in construction work, frontline combat, firefighting and police work).

Also, gays ran stuff in history plenty of times, Caesar and Alexander the Great, in England King Edward II, King Richard the Lionheart, King James I, and William of Orange were all probably gay, and in France Louis XIII was probably bisexual, and in Austria Rudolf II may have been, and in Prussia Frederick the Great obviously was. There are also rumours about all sorts of US political figures. Similarly since it's 1-3% of the population it doesn't make sense to think of anything less than that proportion as out of the ordinary as far as the average number of men in such jobs go go. As for people of colour running stuff, I have no idea where you get the idea that they don't run stuff. Just go to a country where people are those of colour and you will see it. None of the categories you listed technically have been an "underclass" except during and after the 19th century in the Western world (i.e. since the advent of progressivism and mass democracy).
I also think part of the problem is that as men's roles evolve and change, many men aren't sure exactly what it means to be a man in the 21st century. The days when men worked in fields and did heavy labor, fought bravely in battle, brought home the bacon and kept the little woman at home, are mostly gone. Economics and politics have forced these changes.

This is why it's really not likely to get any better for men, they just need to stop trying to interact with a broken system. It's only a few more decades to the artificial wombs. :P
If they are accepted with open hearts, and we can learn to work together instead of against each other, we may be able to make a better world.
If we are willing, we can get past our fears and really put the Buddhist teachings on self/other into practice. Maybe a little tonglen would help.

A bit sanctimonious no? Maybe you need to do some tonglen to learn some empathy towards people other than those the schools, media and government asks you to have empathy towards. But let's find common ground and agreement before we start writing our manifesto.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Will » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:55 am

Indrajala wrote:
Will wrote:Seems odd to me that you, Indrajala, have become more contentious on this board than upasaka Jeffrey. What about 'leaving home' has induced you to pay so much attention to the samsaric 'home' you renounced?


Oh well. I'm a crappy monk and you're a judgmental layman.

Moving on...


You are half right.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Indrajala » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:48 am

Malcolm wrote:Indian culture is very hygenic and civilized, actually. They suffer from overpopulation in the north. The squalid nature of India has many causes, mostly colonial.


Didn't you say...

And Indian cities, by and large, are dirty, dangerous and squalid, and always have been. It is their culture. Not ours. We can visit and enjoy it or hate it, but it is not our business to tell them what to do or how to run their country.


This is contradictory.
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