Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marriage

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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Zhen Li » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:13 am

How about this?

Get rid of state recognition of marriage altogether? It discriminates against the natural state of a human: the single state.

As for raising kids, to see examples of people who turn out fine without two heterosexed parents, just look at monks raised in the monastery. Some good cases, some bad ones, just like anyone.

And as for objections that this will allow child marriage, keep laws against paedophilia and it's not an issue. But this is pretty relative, it all depends on how the culture views marriage. Marriage doesn't necessarily = sex or love. It's all context/culture dependent. People will do what their culture/religion/experiences (i.e. karma) makes them feel comfortable with. (Don't forget that the liberal tradition that believes in homosexual marriage is a religious tradition too)

As for Buddhism, we shouldn't even care. Marriage sucks, voluntary slavery - and you don't even get the free meals or place to sleep like a slave does - and if your a man and your wife hits you, good luck convincing the police you've been abused or finding a shelter for you and your kids that'll take in a male. :P (Can't wait for the days of artificial wombs)
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby reddust » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:42 am

Zhen Li wrote:
As for Buddhism, we shouldn't even care. Marriage sucks, voluntary slavery - and you don't even get the free meals or place to sleep like a slave does - and if your a man and your wife hits you, good luck convincing the police you've been abused or finding a shelter for you and your kids that'll take in a male. :P (Can't wait for the days of artificial wombs)


Maybe male and female could be friends if men weren't dependent on wombs? I seriously wish this to be so because I love you guys. hahaha :tongue: I have a lot of friends who prefer the same gender in sexual relationships. They fight and divorce just as much as us folk who prefer the opposite sex in a sexual relationship. I bet lawyers and the family courts really want same sex marriages, more profit!

Slaves pay for their meals and cots with their freedom. When I look at this life it seems we are all slaves to something :broke:
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:00 am

dzogchungpa wrote:Floozies? Do they still exist?

justsit wrote:Oh yeah, they're out there, just called by a different name. I was being polite.

Can you introduce me to some?
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:07 am

reddust wrote:I remember reading an American native man's remark to the white man's life style saying how stupid it was. He said something like, "You white men work so hard and your woman is so mean. My women does all the work and during the winter all I have to do is sleep, eat, and cuddle with my wife or wives." I can't remember exactly how many wives or just one wife.

I have to admit, he makes a strong case.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Zhen Li » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:37 am

reddust wrote:
Zhen Li wrote:
As for Buddhism, we shouldn't even care. Marriage sucks, voluntary slavery - and you don't even get the free meals or place to sleep like a slave does - and if your a man and your wife hits you, good luck convincing the police you've been abused or finding a shelter for you and your kids that'll take in a male. :P (Can't wait for the days of artificial wombs)


Maybe male and female could be friends if men weren't dependent on wombs? I seriously wish this to be so because I love you guys. hahaha :tongue: I have a lot of friends who prefer the same gender in sexual relationships. They fight and divorce just as much as us folk who prefer the opposite sex in a sexual relationship. I bet lawyers and the family courts really want same sex marriages, more profit!

Slaves pay for their meals and cots with their freedom. When I look at this life it seems we are all slaves to something :broke:

Yup sure true. Men are dependent on wombs, since women can make all the choices about whether it's switches on or off.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby justsit » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:53 am

Zhen Li wrote:Yup sure true. Men are dependent on wombs, since women can make all the choices about whether it's switches on or off.


Wait - so you mean men are jealous because women have wombs?? Wombs switch on and off??
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Zhen Li » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:58 am

Yeah, I heard you can take a special pill.

And sure, they may be jealous of their power.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Indrajala » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:12 am

Jikan wrote:Can you cite a few plausible examples of this phenomenon?


Here is one well-sold work that suggests fathers are disposable:

Raising Boys Without Men: How Maverick Moms are Creating the Next Generation of Exceptional Men by Peggy Drexler.

    Backed by peer-reviewed research, this hotly debated bestseller (San Francisco Chronicle) continues to open eyes with its finding that raising thriving, emotionally healthy sons does not require a man in the house.

    As the number of single-mom and two-mom households has grown, so have concerns about the possible damage caused by the lack of a stable male role model in the house. Determined to find the truth, research psychologist Peggy Drexler embarked on a long-term study comparing boys raised in nontraditional families with those whose fathers were present throughout their childhood. The results were startling. Female-headed households can provide even better parenting for boys than households with men. Sons from female-headed families can grow up emotionally stronger and more well-rounded than boys from "traditional" mother-father families--more in touch with their feelings yet masculine in all the ways defined by our culture.

    Nominated for a Books for a Better Life Award in Parenting, Raising Boys Without Men has been featured on numerous television shows and in print, from Good Morning America to Good Housekeeping.


You sometimes see expressions like the need to "domesticate males" as if we're untamed animals


Examples, not counting those said in jest?


This is an idea I've come across here and there. Here is one example of the expression in use:


As feminism has set an agenda that makes it harder to domesticate male nature, it constitutes what conservatives see as a threat to civilization. Whereas feminists perceive the social order as a patriarchy that exhibits the worst aspects of male nature, conservatives see the social order as that which protects us from the worst aspects of male nature..


Kenneth C. Clatterbaugh, Contemporary perspectives on masculinity: men, women, and politics in modern society, 39.

Whether the idea of "domesticating males" or their nature is advocated by a feminist or non-feminist, it assumes males need to be tamed and placated so as to live properly in the home.


First, you assume that women entering the workforce is attributable to a change in values, and not to changes in economic structures.


What prompted, at least in part, those changes in economic structures? There is no one cause behind them (I'm aware inflation went up while wages did not from the 70s onwards, but that doesn't explain it all), but up until feminism being a homemaker was seen as an honorable and expected profession. Nowadays, especially in my generation, there is sometimes contempt for it.




You assume that the pattern of women forgoing a career to rear children is something that persisted for generations--can you specify how many generations this persisted, and how prevalent this pattern may have been? I ask because there is little evidence for the stay-at-home mother as a stable institution for the majority of working-class families in North America (particularly with regard to farm communities).


Up until widespread urbanization, most adults did not have 'careers'. They lived and worked their land to feed themselves and hopefully get a small surplus. Neither the man nor woman in such arrangements really had a career. There were traditional gender roles however.




You assume but do not demonstrate that women in the workforce are not conducive to family health, and that this change was introduced in the mid-20th century, when there is substantial evidence to rebut this claim. Finally, your in the absence of your demonstration of these assumptions you assert, your claim that "family values are undermined by feminism" is an empty, fatuous one.


Calm down. Dharma Wheel's forum is basically at the level of a coffee shop discussion.

This isn't an academic conference.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Indrajala » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:15 am

Will wrote:Seems odd to me that you, Indrajala, have become more contentious on this board than upasaka Jeffrey. What about 'leaving home' has induced you to pay so much attention to the samsaric 'home' you renounced?


Oh well. I'm a crappy monk and you're a judgmental layman.

Moving on...
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Zhen Li » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:18 am

Can you cite a few plausible examples of this phenomenon?
Here is one well-sold work that suggests fathers are disposable:

If all you knew about sexes was from TV, you'd think women are all geniuses and men have no wits and are more or less chimps.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Indrajala » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:24 am

WASW wrote:Yes- but I am questioning the idea that there are "unintelligent masses" who require the (quite cynical and manipulative, in this view) existence of institutions that are sanctioned by religions to keep them stable?


The masses are generally unintelligent and unable to properly look after themselves. This is why states attempt to have a monopoly on violence, because the common people cannot be expected to use it wisely. In some cultures the common people can use power responsibility, but this seems exceptional to me.

Institutions sanctioned by religion don't necessarily keep people stable, though it would be a factor contributing to social cohesion and cooperation amongst families.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Indrajala » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:25 am

Zhen Li wrote:
Can you cite a few plausible examples of this phenomenon?
Here is one well-sold work that suggests fathers are disposable:

If all you knew about sexes was from TV, you'd think women are all geniuses and men have no wits and are more or less chimps.


This is a popular perception of genders that stems from popular feminist values.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Indrajala » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:32 am

Zhen Li wrote:As for raising kids, to see examples of people who turn out fine without two heterosexed parents, just look at monks raised in the monastery. Some good cases, some bad ones, just like anyone.


Yes and no. I personally don't feel children should be in monasteries.

In Asia monks tend to conceal their true emotions and trauma. Nobody likes a monk with a troubled past.


As for Buddhism, we shouldn't even care. Marriage sucks, voluntary slavery - and you don't even get the free meals or place to sleep like a slave does - and if your a man and your wife hits you, good luck convincing the police you've been abused or finding a shelter for you and your kids that'll take in a male. :P (Can't wait for the days of artificial wombs)


No, we should care.

“One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.” - Plato
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Indrajala » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:34 am

Malcolm wrote:Yes, I don't agree. I think they are utterly worthless for consideration and should be dismissed out of hand as pure bigotry, something you might hear on a fundamentalist Christian television station.


Perhaps we should also criminalize such views too?
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby rory » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:02 am

Hehe gotta love Ven. Inrdrajala. He lives in a fantasy world, where we are all agrarian, Little House on the Prairie, all bucolic and happy whar the lil women hoes the back forty, pickling and canning in between squeezing out 10 to 15 of those little tykes, whom she nurses, bathes, minds and teaches them readin and writing. Now those were the days!


I remember my great-great aunts who all had good jobs in NYC in the 1920's (their widowed mother had to send them out to work) they married had children but those with unsatisfactory husbands divorced them because they could! They had money and therefore were independent. The same today, divorce is high because women can! They are no longer 1950 housewives stuck with their husbands as they have no skills.

As for those 'common people' I'm a libertarian as I entirely believe we should be free to make our own choices for good or bad, otherwise we are indeed slaves.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Indrajala » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:08 am

rory wrote:Hehe gotta love Ven. Inrdrajala. He lives in a fantasy world, where we are all agrarian, Little House on the Prairie, all bucolic and happy whar the lil women hoes the back forty, pickling and canning in between squeezing out 10 to 15 of those little tykes, whom she nurses, bathes, minds and teaches them readin and writing. Now those were the days!


This is a mischaracterization of me and my positions.

I suggested until widespread urbanization, most people were living on farms and had no 'careers'. Both men and women.


As for those 'common people' I'm a libertarian as I entirely believe we should be free to make our own choices for good or bad, otherwise we are indeed slaves.


Countries which perpetually let people make the wrong decisions end up like India or worse.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Zhen Li » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:11 am

Indrajala wrote:
Zhen Li wrote:As for raising kids, to see examples of people who turn out fine without two heterosexed parents, just look at monks raised in the monastery. Some good cases, some bad ones, just like anyone.


Yes and no. I personally don't feel children should be in monasteries.

In Asia monks tend to conceal their true emotions and trauma. Nobody likes a monk with a troubled past.

Not in my experience.
Indrajala wrote:
As for Buddhism, we shouldn't even care. Marriage sucks, voluntary slavery - and you don't even get the free meals or place to sleep like a slave does - and if your a man and your wife hits you, good luck convincing the police you've been abused or finding a shelter for you and your kids that'll take in a male. :P (Can't wait for the days of artificial wombs)


No, we should care.

“One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.” - Plato

Their karma.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Zhen Li » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:13 am

rory wrote:Hehe gotta love Ven. Inrdrajala. He lives in a fantasy world, where we are all agrarian, Little House on the Prairie, all bucolic and happy whar the lil women hoes the back forty, pickling and canning in between squeezing out 10 to 15 of those little tykes, whom she nurses, bathes, minds and teaches them readin and writing. Now those were the days!


I remember my great-great aunts who all had good jobs in NYC in the 1920's (their widowed mother had to send them out to work) they married had children but those with unsatisfactory husbands divorced them because they could! They had money and therefore were independent. The same today, divorce is high because women can! They are no longer 1950 housewives stuck with their husbands as they have no skills.

As for those 'common people' I'm a libertarian as I entirely believe we should be free to make our own choices for good or bad, otherwise we are indeed slaves.
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rory

Lot's of people characture past life through present standards.
Presentism
Everyone does stuff for reasons. No one does stuff because they don't think it makes sense.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby rory » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:41 am

I think he has a nostalgia in our ever-changing world for an idealized past. It's quite common in 19th century England during the Industrial Revolution, many educated saw the birth of the Pre-Raphaelite movement and the Arts and Crafts Movement, where they nostalgically recreated the art and ideas of Medieval times, pre-industrial Europe. Today you'll see something similar in Steampunk movement.

Ven. Indrajala; I don't know where your people are from the Ukraine maybe? but mine were North European Jews, they couldn't be peasants nor could they be nobles in early Medieval Europe, so they were peddlars, traders, rabbis, small bankers (men and women), doctors, scholars, gem dealers, actors. You name it. But always literacy and education were emphazied for men and women. They had businesses and would look on a being a farmer as the worst possible life.
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Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Zhen Li » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:43 am

No one has to farm.

No one has to make kids.

Just end this rebirth thing. :woohoo:
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