Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

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Grigoris
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Grigoris » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:50 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:04 pm


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Grigoris
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Grigoris » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:16 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby DGA » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:22 pm


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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby DGA » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:29 pm

Please continue your discussion in light of the topic, the ToS, and the practice of Right Speech. If the discussion veers off into baseless accusation or comparison for comparison's sake, it will be closed. Thank you for your understanding.

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Malcolm
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Malcolm » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:59 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Grigoris
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Grigoris » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:10 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

JKhedrup
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:17 pm

I think the best course of action is to end the discussion here, personally.

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Malcolm
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Malcolm » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:26 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

uan
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby uan » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:03 pm


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Karma Dorje
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:36 pm

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

uan
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby uan » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:10 am


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Grigoris
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Grigoris » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:25 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

JKhedrup
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:50 am


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Malcolm
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:52 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Dan74
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Dan74 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:13 pm

Sorry to butt in, gents, and not sure if this adds any value to the discussion, but FWIW...

It is not that there is nothing to criticise within Islam and Sharia - there is plenty, but I am wondering what purpose it serves. Change is going to come from within, not from a bunch of infidels denigrating the Word of the Prophet. I think the best that can be done is to foster a respectful free exchange. We've had many Muslim students come and study at the University where I work and many have enjoyed a more pluralistic approach to things that they will then bring home with them. Others had already come from quite pluralistic Muslim societies like Indonesia and Turkey, that don't seem to get much of a mention in these discussions.

At the end of the day there's something a little suss about rubbishing someone else's religion and culture, even if the said rubbishing makes good points. It is simply not our place. It's pretty presumptuous, as if we are sure that we are superior and see it more clearly than them. There are elements in "our Western culture" too that are downright barbaric.

"When asked, speak truthfully, but when not asked, remain quiet."

All IMHO, of course.

JKhedrup
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:54 pm

I guess it depends on if you see us as one human family or a separate societies divided along race, religion, culture.

It may be impossible to enforce standards (and I don't ever things wars should be fought to do that for example), but we can still have discussions about those basic standards. Basic rights in Muslim countries, basic rights in Burma- the idea is to have some very basic agreement on what we can work with as a human family. As I mentioned above- this means working on things in Western countries as well- such as challenging laws about hijab in France for example. It means making concessions- such as not demanding homosexual marriage, but protecting homosexuals from execution or long prison terms.

The other assumption that is often made is that all Muslims find criticism of Sharia law or conservative aspects of their religion offensive- this is not the case. In fact many, such as the man I met from Saudi Arabia and well known and published Liberal Muslim thinkers and authors, wonder why the world remains silent. Irshad Manji, for example, thinks it requires "moral courage" to say something.

Ahmadi Muslims and Ba'hai's often petition concerned Westerners to write letters etc. to Muslim nations expressing concern for their rights.

Part of dialogue means hearing criticism- and this goes for both sides. It also means making concessions so as to come to some sort of agreement. If we just withdraw to our own countries saying "it's none of our business", many will question why we did nothing. It is a catch 22.

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Malcolm
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:33 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Grigoris
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Grigoris » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:23 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

JKhedrup
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:11 pm

Why questioning and pointing out oppressive practices is not "bashing". The woman I proudly take my cues from on this issue, Irshad Manji:

https://www.irshadmanji.com/irshad

In Arabic, Irshad means "guidance." My mission: to help people live with integrity and wholeness, especially those who feel limited by culture, religion, or society.

This mission has been a life-long journey.

Growing up in a violent household, I made a commitment to use my education for good. That meant finding my voice, asking questions, and thinking for myself.

At my Islamic school, I asked too many questions, and got expelled at age 14. Later, studying Islam on my own, I made a truly surprising discovery: It is possible to reconcile faith with freedom.

My journey has brought me to where I am today – speaking, writing and teaching not just about Islam, but also about moral courage. I stand for the human right to question, free from fear.


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