Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:30 pm

Well as you can see I also mentioned Pakistan, and Africa in general.

And of course I would like to see the communists leave Tibet, and have often spoken up about it. The U.S. corporatocracy whether directly or indirectly supports the governmemt of communist China by intentionally setting up monopoly corporations like Walmart, which in turn supports both sweatshop labor in China and minimum-wage serfdom here in the U.S.A.

As for Saudi Arabia; from what I understand most radical fundamentalists actually come from Saudia Arabia (perhaps due to the two sects of Salafism and Wahhabism being big there, one sect of which at least allows Sufism/Tassawuf) which happens to be an ally of Israel's biggest ally: the U.S. (I mean U.S. military bases are allowed to be set up in Saudi Arabia afterall).

And I think that Iran is not necessarily as bad as many make it out to be. A lot of what we hear is likely propaganda and not actually backed by facts.
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:48 pm

List of Muslim countries with death penalty for Apostasy (ridda or turning back):

Iran, Pakistan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Qatar, Yemen, Mauritania (death penalty if still apostate after 3 days),

List of Muslim countries with death penalty for adultery:

Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Somalia (recent stoning sentence given), Pakistan (tribal areas),

note: A survey conducted by the Pew Research Center found relatively widespread popular support for stoning as a punishment for adultery in Egypt (82% of respondents in favor of the punishment), Jordan (70% in favor), Indonesia (42% in favor), Pakistan (82% favor) and Nigeria (56% in favor).[(Wikipedia)

List of Muslim countries with death penalty for homosexuality:

Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran (over 110 executed since 1979), Yemen. Many others with long-term prison sentences.

To deny the gross injustice of Sharia law in these countries and at the same time scold Isreal for human rights abuses is a great contradiction. Do I support the state of Isreal? no. But I am just as concerned about laws that state apostates should be killed.
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:06 pm

I'm not implying that I don't disagree with radical fundamentalism.

I'm just saying that the west has no business policing half the world, especially considering that their said policing is mainly for corporate & banking interests and has nothing to do with "fighting terrorism".

Now I'm not saying we should be isolationists; what I'm saying is that we ought to adopt a non-interventionist foreighn policy and close down all U.S. military bases that exist outside of the U.S.A. and stop using those creepy drones.
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby conebeckham » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:26 pm

I agree with Malcolm's posts, with some provisos..

First, this is not about Nation States--although I grant you that our gov't. has made it so, to a large degree.

Islamic radical fundamentalists therefore can't be held in the same light as, for example, Syria, or Iran, etc.

Second, although "they" cannot attack us en masse, they certainly can attack us, have done so to great effect, have been folied many times since that day, and in fact they continue to plot to do so.

I'm not a believer in Imperialism, Colonialism, whether it is "empire-building, or merely cultural disagreement (which is really what the difference in "human Rights" values comes to do)....
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby conebeckham » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:57 am

foiled. Drat it.
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby lobster » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:29 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:They are a very open


Must be time for me to contact my local Ahmadiyya Mosque/Temple again, they regard Siddharta Gautama Buddha as a Prophet . . . only a six million strong heresy . . . before you know it some Buddhists may regard Mohammad as a Boddhisattva . . . maybe not all Buddhists are as open minded yet . . .

I find the idea of preferential compassion rather . . . prevalent across divides. I guess we can all practice more . . . :meditate:
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:54 am

The Ahmadiyya movement is a wonderful inspiration.

Unfortunately, they are regarded as heretics by the vast majority of Orthodox Muslims and have suffered terrible persections, anti-blasphemy laws have been used to send them to jail or even put them to death. Ba'hais have suffered similar persecution.

https://www.persecutionofahmadis.org/

A man belonging to the Ahmadiyya community, Zahoor Ahmed Kiyani, 46, was shot and killed along with his neighbour, Noorul Wahid, in Mujahid Colony area of Orangi Town. The police officials told The Express Tribune that the deceased was sitting outside the house with his neighbour, when at least two armed men on a motorcycle came up-close and shot him multiple times.


Mob ransacks Ahmadiyah village


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis
Ahmadis are declared as Non-Muslims and further derived from religious rights in the Second Amendment to the Constitution of Pakistan and Ordinance XX. Hundreds of Ahmadis were killed in 1953 Lahore riots, 1974 Anti-Ahmadiyya riots and May 2010 attacks on Ahmadi mosques in Lahore. 1974 riots were the largest killings of Ahmadis.


Persecution of Ba'hai in Iran:

The origins of persecution stem from a variety of Bahá'í teachings inconsistent with traditional Islamic belief, including the finality of Muhammad's prophethood, and places Bahá'ís outside the Islamic faith.[2][3] Thus Bahá'ís are seen as apostates from Islam, and, according to some, must choose between repentance and death.[3]

Bahá'ís as well as the United Nations, Amnesty International, the European Union, the United States and peer-reviewed academic literature have stated that the members of the Bahá'í community in Iran have been subjected to unwarranted arrests, false imprisonment, beatings, torture, unjustified executions, confiscation and destruction of property owned by individuals and the Bahá'í community, denial of employment, denial of government benefits, denial of civil rights and liberties, and denial of access to higher education
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby lobster » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:10 am

JKhedrup wrote:The Ahmadiyya movement is a wonderful inspiration.


Indeed. I am inspired by the Hindu heresy sometimes known as 'Buddhism'.
Divisive thinking influenced by ignorance is no substitute for Manjushri's Sword
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/study/islam/general/relation_between_buddhism_sufism.html

Following the hateful, the political, the power befuddled is no substitute for Mega Mecca Metta for our fellow heretics . . .

:woohoo:
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:13 pm

JKhedrup wrote:My main concern here is specifically the survival of Buddhism and to a certain extent all of the Dharmic traditions.
Buddhism and other Dharmic traditions come and go. There is this overiding factor named impermanence. Everything we experience is a consequence of karma, it applies to all of us regardless of which -ism one might adhere to. All samsaric existence is suffering regardless of who or what you are.

Thankfully, Dharma is eternal!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:28 pm

So we should just throw our hands in the air,not worrying that the teachings of Buddhadharma might disappear?

What about the liberation of sentient beings from suffering and affliction?

Just because it will eventually happen doesn't mean we shouldn't try to prevent it from happening. Taking compassionate, non-violent steps to preserve the dharma and prevent it from being harmed is an act of great compassion.

The sooner Dharma disappears, the sooner sentient beings opportunity for emancipation from suffering disappears. I feel a responsibility to protect the teachings and those who practice them. Without this feeling of responsibility "Sangha" becomes an empty word devoid of real meaning. No one is advocating advancing Buddhism at the cost of other religions. (This is what is advocated by many in the Abrahamic faiths), but preserving what is left of it in this world.

I am not advocating violence, revenge, offence or even propagation (like many Christians and Muslims), but appreciation and protection for a path that has been preserved through the efforts and practice of our teachers before us. So if anti-Buddhist hate speech is heard by these ears, I will stand up and say something about it. I will also question fundamentally unconstitutional laws in Muslim countries like Malaysia that hinder the practice of Buddhism and force Buddhists to choose between their religion and their partner. I will speak up against the targeting of monks and vulnerable Buddhist minorities in the name of retribution for things that happened in a country far away that they had nothing to do with.

Your view is almost fatalistic. If everyone had taken it Buddhism would have disappeared years ago.

The views of a great portion of Muslims (according to statistics as posted above, the majority) are antethical to the modern ideas of freedom of religion. If you don't allow apostasy, you don't allow people the freedom to choose the direction of their spiritual life, but instead shackle them with fear of in some cases physical death. Believing in death for apostates is an ugly belief and it is not unkind to say so. Anyone who subscribes to it is in my mind a fanatic. I feel the same way about fundamentalist Christians who would damn us all to hell for not believing in Jesus (and nevermind just not believing, but not believing in the right way).
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:49 pm

JKhedrup wrote:So we should just throw our hands in the air,not worrying that the teachings of Buddhadharma might disappear?
You can throw your hands in the air or you can pin them to the ground, you can worry yourself sick or you can not give a crap, the outcome will be the same. Buddhism will disappear.

I am sure you are familiar with the term viparinama dukkha.
What about the liberation of sentient beings from suffering and affliction?
This has nothing to do with the fact that whatever arises perishes. One can be aware of impermanence and still liberate beings. Actually, I believe an awareness of impermanence is a prerequisite to liberation.
Just because it will eventually happen doesn't mean we shouldn't try to prevent it from happening.
If you were talking about physical death here how weird would this statement sound?
Taking compassionate, non-violent steps to preserve the dharma and prevent it from being harmed is an act of great compassion.
I agree, but we shouldn't be under any delusion that we can halt the demise of Buddhism.
The sooner Dharma disappears, the sooner sentient beings opportunity for emancipation from suffering disappears.
Dharma never disappears. Teachings on Dharma disappear (and reappear, and disappear, and reappear, and... ad nauseum).
I am not advocating violence, revenge, offence or even propagation (like many Christians and Muslims), but appreciation and protection for a path that has been preserved through the efforts and practice of our teachers before us.
I never even imagined that you would advocate something like that.
So if anti-[Muslim] hate speech is heard by these ears, I will stand up and say something about it. I will also question fundamentally unconstitutional laws in [Buddhist] countries like [Burma] that hinder the practice of [Islam] and force [Muslims] to choose between their religion and their [home]. I will speak up against the targeting of [clergy] and vulnerable [Islamic] minorities in the name of retribution for things that happened in a country far away that they had nothing to do with.
Etc...
Your view is almost fatalistic. If everyone had taken it Buddhism would have disappeared years ago.
I do believe that according to the Buddha it is already past its "use by" date. ;)
The views of a great portion of Muslims (according to statistics as posted above, the majority) are antethical to the modern ideas of freedom of religion. If you don't allow apostasy, you don't allow people the freedom to choose the direction of their spiritual life, but instead shackle them with fear of in some cases physical death. Believing in death for apostates is an ugly belief and it is not unkind to say so. Anyone who subscribes to it is in my mind a fanatic. I feel the same way about fundamentalist Christians who would damn us all to hell for not believing in Jesus (and nevermind just not believing, but not believing in the right way).
And you are going to stop them, right? Instead of, let's say, supporting moderates so that they gain a louder and more influential voice in their community we should play straight into the hands of fanatics by making them into martrys? By proving their words true?
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby plwk » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:50 pm

So we should just throw our hands in the air,not worrying that the teachings of Buddhadharma might disappear?
The sooner Dharma disappears, the sooner sentient beings opportunity for emancipation from suffering disappears. I feel a responsibility to protect the teachings and those who practice them. Without this feeling of responsibility "Sangha" becomes an empty word devoid of real meaning. No one is advocating advancing Buddhism at the cost of other religions. (This is what is advocated by many in the Abrahamic faiths), but preserving what is left of it in this world.
Just because it will eventually happen doesn't mean we shouldn't try to prevent it from happening. Taking compassionate, non-violent steps to preserve the dharma and prevent it from being harmed is an act of great compassion.
If I were in your shoes, this would be my first and main step...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.'
That's how you should train yourselves.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
But these five qualities tend to the stability, the non-confusion, the non-disappearance of the true Dhamma. Which five?
There is the case where the monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers live with respect, with deference, for the Teacher.
They live with respect, with deference, for the Dhamma... for the Sangha... for the Training... for concentration.
These are the five qualities that tend to the stability, the non-confusion, the non-disappearance of the true Dhamma.

Then I would worry about this part....
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
It's not the earth property that makes the true Dhamma disappear. It's not the water property... the fire property... the wind property that makes the true Dhamma disappear. It's worthless people who arise right here [within the Sangha] who make the true Dhamma disappear.
The true Dhamma doesn't disappear the way a boat sinks all at once.

I am not advocating violence, revenge, offence or even propagation (like many Christians and Muslims), but appreciation and protection for a path that has been preserved through the efforts and practice of our teachers before us. So if anti-Buddhist hate speech is heard by these ears, I will stand up and say something about it. I will also question fundamentally unconstitutional laws in Muslim countries like Malaysia that hinder the practice of Buddhism and force Buddhists to choose between their religion and their partner. I will speak up against the targeting of monks and vulnerable Buddhist minorities in the name of retribution for things that happened in a country far away that they had nothing to do with.
Yes, when dealing with the difficult...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html
If, bhikkhus, others speak in dispraise of me, or in dispraise of the Dhamma, or in dispraise of the Sangha, you should not give way to resentment, displeasure, or animosity against them in your heart. For if you were to become angry or upset in such a situation, you would only be creating an obstacle for yourselves.

If you were to become angry or upset when others speak in dispraise of us, would you be able to recognize whether their statements are rightly or wrongly spoken?"
"Certainly not, Lord."

If, bhikkhus, others speak in dispraise of me, or in dispraise of the Dhamma, or in dispraise of the Sangha, you should unravel what is false and point it out as false, saying: 'For such and such a reason this is false, this is untrue, there is no such thing in us, this is not found among us.'

And if, bhikkhus, others speak in praise of me, or in praise of the Dhamma, or in praise of the Sangha, you should not give way to jubilation, joy, and exultation in your heart. For if you were to become jubilant, joyful, and exultant in such a situation, you would only be creating an obstacle for yourselves.

If others speak in praise of me, or in praise of the Dhamma, or in praise of the Sangha, you should acknowledge what is fact as fact, saying:
'For such and such a reason this is a fact, this is true, there is such a thing in us, this is found among us.'
Of course, that is in the text. Now, what if the 'authorities' won't even engage in dialogue? Authorities that think that they're compromising their 'sanctity' by even having a dialogue with those 'beneath' them?
Tricky huh?
What about the liberation of sentient beings from suffering and affliction?
As Dajian Huineng observes...
We vow to deliver an infinite number of sentient beings of our mind.
Learned Audience, all of us have now declared that we vow to deliver an infinite number of sentient beings; but what does that mean?
It does not mean that I, Hui Neng, am going to deliver them. And who are these sentient beings within our mind? They are the delusive mind, the deceitful mind, the evil mind, and such like minds -- all these are sentient beings. Each of them has to deliver himself by means of his own Essence of Mind. Then the deliverance is genuine.

The views of a great portion of Muslims (according to statistics as posted above, the majority) are antethical to the modern ideas of freedom of religion. If you don't allow apostasy, you don't allow people the freedom to choose the direction of their spiritual life, but instead shackle them with fear of in some cases physical death. Believing in death for apostates is an ugly belief and it is not unkind to say so. Anyone who subscribes to it is in my mind a fanatic. I feel the same way about fundamentalist Christians who would damn us all to hell for not believing in Jesus (and nevermind just not believing, but not believing in the right way).
I remember the old timer Genkaku and his famous oft quote that goes something like 'what others do or don't, is not my concern but what I do or don't is'.
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:36 pm

Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.'
That's how you should train yourselves.


Exactly, the words should be available so that beings will have them around to be able to master.

Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.'
That's how you should train yourselves.


I have not mastered or known them, but I do listen, recite and translate them. I am working on it, I don't pretend to be a role model or teacher, unlike so many around who don't try to penetrate the teachings but use fancy titles.

It's not the earth property that makes the true Dhamma disappear. It's not the water property... the fire property... the wind property that makes the true Dhamma disappear. It's worthless people who arise right here [within the Sangha] who make the true Dhamma disappear.
The true Dhamma doesn't disappear the way a boat sinks all at once.


Absolutely. Lord Buddha's words ring true and I agree that the study and practice of the Sangha is of utmost importance. As you will know if you have read my topics in other threads, I am deeply concerned about a)the lack of support and interest in supporting Sangha b) the lack of level of practice and conduct in the Sangha which would inspire support and c)the degeneration of the level of commitment of Sangha in the modern world.

If, bhikkhus, others speak in dispraise of me, or in dispraise of the Dhamma, or in dispraise of the Sangha, you should unravel what is false and point it out as false, saying: 'For such and such a reason this is false, this is untrue, there is no such thing in us, this is not found among us.'


This is exactly what Ajahn Sujato does in the article I posted. Did you read it?

If, bhikkhus, others speak in dispraise of me, or in dispraise of the Dhamma, or in dispraise of the Sangha, you should not give way to resentment, displeasure, or animosity against them in your heart. For if you were to become angry or upset in such a situation, you would only be creating an obstacle for yourselves.


Of course I need to work on my displeasure on hearing words of violence and of the lack of freedom people in the countries mentioned above suffer due to apostasy. If there is emotion in my words that is just me being honest- of course I am still battling the afflictions. But I don't feel animosity to the people themselves, I feel displeasure at doctrines like the Apostasy doctrine. Why? Because they trample on people's basic human rights.


What about the liberation of sentient beings from suffering and affliction?
As Dajian Huineng observes...
We vow to deliver an infinite number of sentient beings of our mind.
Learned Audience, all of us have now declared that we vow to deliver an infinite number of sentient beings; but what does that mean?
It does not mean that I, Hui Neng, am going to deliver them. And who are these sentient beings within our mind? They are the delusive mind, the deceitful mind, the evil mind, and such like minds -- all these are sentient beings. Each of them has to deliver himself by means of his own Essence of Mind. Then the deliverance is genuine.


You misunderstood me. I never said it was myself or any other person who would deliver sentionet beings, but the dharma. Even if I accept Master Huineng's words literally (which I don't because sentient beings are sentient beings, although the poetry about delivering oneself from the afflictions is beautiful), the dharma would still need to me around for beings to free themselves from the delusive mind etc. that Huineng mentions.

If the dharma is wiped out, the most we can hope for is a needle in the haystack praktyekabuddha.
Last edited by JKhedrup on Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:40 pm

Of course, that is in the text. Now, what if the 'authorities' won't even engage in dialogue? Authorities that think that they're compromising their 'sanctity' by even having a dialogue with those 'beneath' them?
Tricky huh?


Plwk this is exactly what the problem is, thank you for pointing it out so barely. I am not sure on what the appropriate response is but I am looking at the moment for precedents in the teachings of Buddhist masters on how to deal with this.

As someone who is familiar with the Buddhist scene in Malaysia, how to the Buddhists there deal with the laws of the land? For example, intermarriage? Do devout Buddhists simply avoid marrying Muslims? Do they convert externally but maintain their practice? Do they find that they would just wholeheartedly convert for the sake of the marriage?

Have the laws in Indonesia ever been deemed unconstitutional? Such as Muslims being forbidden to enter Buddhist places of worship, or the marriage situation mentioned above?

Would it be anti-Buddhist for the laws to be challenged in court? If so, why?

HHDL says this:

If a harmonious relationship is established amongst societies and religious beliefs in today's multi-ethnic, multi-religious and multi-cultural world, then it will surely set a very good example for others. However, if all the sides become careless, then there is a danger of imminent problems. In a multi­ethnic society the biggest problem is that of between the majority and the minority. For instance, in the capital Leh, Buddhists constitute the majority of the population whereas Muslims belong to the minority community. The majority must consider the minority as their invited guests. The minority, on the other hand, should be able to sensitise with the majority. In other words, both sides should live in harmony. In order to sustain this harmony, both sides should not take lightly the sensitive issues between themselves. Indeed, the majority should pay attention to and appreciate the views and opinion of the minority. Both sides should discuss and clearly express what they think about the other's view and opinion. The minority, on the other hand, should be careful about where the sensitive issues of the majority lies and express whatever doubts they have in their minds. If problems are resolved in such a friendly manner; then both sides will gain. Suspicion of each other will only harm both communities. Therefore, it is very important to live in harmony and analyse where the opinion of the other lies. The best way to do this is to engage in dialogue, dialogue and dialogue.

http://www.dalailama.com/messages/religious-harmony
Last edited by JKhedrup on Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:47 pm

http://www.inebnetwork.org/thinksangha/ ... abook.html
Introduction
In February 2003 at the Third International Think Sangha meeting in Thailand, a group of grassroots Buddhist activists focused on the issues of karma and social justice. In response to extreme experiences of social suffering in many parts of Southeast Asia, especially the conflict areas of Sri Lanka and Burma, questions about forgiveness, acceptance and justice were discussed at length. What is a Buddhist response to political oppression? To economic exploitation? Does Buddhism encourage passivity and victimization? Can violent perpetrators be brought to justice without anger and retributive punishment? What does Buddhism say - or imply - about collective karma, and social justice?
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:57 pm

And you are going to stop them, right? Instead of, let's say, supporting moderates so that they gain a louder and more influential voice in their community we should play straight into the hands of fanatics by making them into martrys? By proving their words true?


Greg, how has any action I have advocated in any of threads I have posted proved the words of fanatics true, and how would it contribute to terrorists being seen as martyrs? Did you miss the part of my posts where I advocated the withdrawal of Western forces from Muslim areas and critiqued Isreal's human rights record? Or are you simply angry because I refuse to follow politically correct and liberal paradigms of bludgeoning the West and Isreal while at the same time excusing the disgusting abuse of women, homesexuals, non-Muslims and people who choose to convert from Islam in the middle East?

In terms of stopping them- yes, I think we can try....

How? Well, the first step would be to lessen our dependence upon Middle Eastern petroleum resources and withdraw all military forces from the region.

The second step would be for countries in the West to grant asylum to any accused Adultress, Apostate, Christian, follower of "heterodox" Islam like Ahmiddiya, homosexual at risk of oppression with a generous refugee program.

The third step would be to take the rulers in the countries responsible for these abuses to a court of human rights (just like we should with some Isrealis and some Americans) and be sure that they were held accountable according to the standards of international law. If this is impossible, they could be tried in absentia and diplomatic consequences could be considered. This in in accord with Buddha's words in the Pali Canon:

“wheel-turning righteous monarch of the law, conqueror of the four quarters, who has established the security of his realm … has more than a thousand sons who are heroes, of heroic stature, conquerors of the hostile army. He dwells having conquered this sea-girt land without stick or sword, by the law.” (DN.30.16)


It is only when bullies and human rights abusers are presented with (of course non-violent) consequences for their actions that Moderates will have any hope of having their voices heard. At the moment the moderates you speak of often live in fear of their lives in many Muslim countries. What about their rights?
Last edited by JKhedrup on Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby plwk » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:11 pm

I have not mastered or known them, but I do listen, recite and translate them, so I don't know how you would know if I personally am or am not doing this (except that you don't like several positions I have taken on threads like this one).
I don't. That's why I used myself as reference.
This is exactly what Ajahn Sujato does in the article I posted. Did you read it?
Yeah but he cannot expect others to do the same with the same ease that he does in Australia...
If the dharma is wiped out, the most we can hope for is a needle in the haystack praktyekabuddha.
Or a kind Arhat or some Arya Bodhisattvas...
As someone who is familiar with the Buddhist scene in Malaysia, how to the Buddhists there deal with the laws of the land? For example, intermarriage? Do devout Buddhists simply avoid marrying Muslims? Do they convert externally but maintain their practice? Do they find that they would just wholeheartedly convert for the sake of the marriage?
I can't speak for others but from what I have heard & known, it's the standard toe the line, don't rock the boat thingy. Politicians of all stripes here have only proven to be of little help in some matters and none in others, better than none at all I guess. An inter faith marriage with the dominant religion is a no no for the well informed and one doesn't get to 'pretend' after that with 'vigilant' religious authorities these days unless you live overseas or way below the radar. Well, those who would for the sake of love and marriage should do so with open eyes and full knowledge of what they're getting themselves into... I wish them all the best and they should know as the old Hotel California tune goes you can check out anytime you like but you can never leave only that in this case, one may never be permitted to check out nor leave... there are extremely rare and few cases where they succeeded but it's the exception. Like this long and sad case
I am not familiar with what Indonesians do exactly but I heard from friends that they are quite tolerant on inter faith marriages where conversion of the non Muslim party is not a requirement nor pursued but then again, if one lives in Sumatera and especially in places like Aceh or in some parts of the Java island side, where religious conservatism is strong and they happen to be the majority, then you are back to square one.
Would it be anti-Buddhist for the laws to be challenged in court? If so, why?
I doubt it's any matter of being anti versus one's Constitutional rights to be upheld by a court of law but reality is, legal decisions are oft not free from 'perceived' political and social interferences. This is a global phenomena I should think. Even the US have a long standing history of such when the religious right wingers try to assert their influence over that of the Constitution. And when a country has two legal systems running side by side, civil and religious, it muddies the matter further, no?
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:22 pm

Some words from Aung San Suu Kyi and Samdhong Rinpoche

http://books.google.nl/books?id=4H-rEku ... ng&f=false
Thus, non-violence is at least a necessary condition for justice...

Likewise, (Samdong) Rinpoche made it clear that nonviolence does not mean passivity and endorsed Gandhi's satyagraha approach, glossing it as insistence upon truth. That nonviolence does not mean passivity is understood by all engaged Buddhists, some of whom, like Aung San Suu Kyi, must struggle to teach more traditional Buddhists the necessity of taking action (bold mine). "Non-violence means positive action, you have to work for what you want. You don't just sit there and do nothing and hope you get what you want... Some people think that non-violence is passiveness, it is not so.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:22 pm

And finally (last but definitely NOT least) some thoughts from Lord Buddha (selected and paraphrased by soldier Major General Ananda Weerasekera):

http://www.beyondthenet.net/thedway/soldier.htm

In 'chakkavatti- sihanada sutta' (The Lion's Roar on the Turning of Wheel) of the long discourses of the Buddha, Buddha justified the requirement of the king having an Army to provide guard, protection and security for different classes of people in the kingdom from internal and external threats. It refers to a Wheel Turning monarch named Dalhanemi, a righteous monarch of the law, conqueror of the four quarters who had established the security of his realm and was possessed of the seven treasures. He had more than 1000 sons who were heroes, of heroic stature, conquerors of the hostile army. Explaining the noble duties of a righteous king, Buddha also pointed out the advice given to the king in regard to his obligation to provide security for its people. The advisor tells the king " my son, yourself depending on the Dhamma, revering it, doing homage to it, and venerating it having the Dhamma as your badge and banner, acknowledging the Dhamma as your master, you should establish guard, ward and protection according to Dhamma for your own household, your troops in the Army, your nobles and vassals, for Brahmins and householders, town and countryfolk, ascetics and Brahmins, for beasts and birds. Let no crime prevail in your kingdom"


'Seeha Senapathi Sutta' of Anguttara Nikaya-5 shows how, one of the army commanders named 'Seeha' went to Buddha to clarify certain doubts on the Dhamma and how the Buddha advised him without requesting him to resign from the Army or to disband the army. Having clarified his doubts on the Dhamma, Commander Seeha requested Buddha to accept him as a deciple of the Buddha. But Buddha instead of advising him to resign from the army advised thus

'Seeha, it is proper for a popular person of your status to always think and examine when attending to affairs and making decisions ' Seeha, the commander became a sotapanna (stream enterer = first fruit of the Path) having listened to the Dhamma, but remained in the army as a commander.
Last edited by JKhedrup on Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:26 pm

Thanks PLWK for explaining how it works in Malaysia. I do admire your ability to handle with equanimity the realities there :namaste: ... But I also wonder if such laws re-enforce the racial divides in society since on the practical level they prevent much mixing.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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