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the great rebirth debate - Page 139 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
hermitwin
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Re: Scientific Proof of Reincarnation?

Postby hermitwin » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:57 am


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daverupa
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Re: Scientific Proof of Reincarnation?

Postby daverupa » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:29 am


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ancientbuddhism
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby ancientbuddhism » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:25 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


hermitwin
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby hermitwin » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm


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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:53 pm

Far too much of this debate, at least in my humble opinion, is focused on evidence for rebirth instead of a logical basis for rebirth. Einstein had very little "look, there it is" evidence for relativity when he first devised it, but he knew that it was the only logical assumption to make based on the properties he was observing. Quantum physics was the same way. Scientists didn't stumble upon some kind of trail left by quantum physics that they followed until they found it; instead, they looked at the holes in their own understanding of nature and realized that a new paradigm was the best solution to logically filling those holes.

In the same way, I am a firm believer in rebirth because I think it makes the most sense when we consider the model of the mind that Buddhism allows us to observe empirically. When we see the lack of a "self" figure and the impermanent maelstrom of causes and results that make up the observable mind, the model of "it's all just a result of physical processes in a self-contained organic generator" makes no sense. The Hard Problem of Consciousness has been around for quite some time and materialists are no closer to solving it than they were when Descartes first proposed Cartesian duality hundreds of years ago. Once you accept the empirical observation that the mind is of a different ontological essence than the body, and once you view that through the (verifiable) framework of the Buddhist view of mind, rebirth is the only option that makes sense. To attempt to rule the mind strictly material is essentially a reversed solipsism; just like they made the leap that all things were simply mind, even when matter showed itself through observation to behave differently enough to warrant distinction, materialists do the same by relegating all things to matter even when consciousness behaves as differently from matter as essentially possible.

Again, this is all my humble opinion and I don't mean to disparage those who disagree with me! I'm sure there are much more spiritually and intellectually advanced thinkers on both sides =]
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:24 am


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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:13 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:14 pm

Ven. Thanissaro's first point requires that 'the all' of the six sense spheres is an incomplete description of possible experience ("So there's nothing in the Pali discourses to indicate that the Buddha would have agreed with a modern materialist view that experience is limited to the six senses") in order to allow for his understanding that consciousness can exist in a separate dimension beyond 'the all', but this is directly refutable since the Buddha declares that any consciousness is defined according to the concomitant sense activity, the condition for contact - there can be no consciousness that isn't consciousness of one of the six sense spheres, however one might try to describe such a dimension. (Also, a six-sense epistemology is not at all the same thing as "modern materialism", yet these are inappropriately equated.) Nibbana is a lack of certain functions, not an infinite function in a mystical dimension.

The second point suggests that to not believe in rebirth is to "remain entangled in the questions of inappropriate attention, which will prevent you from actually identifying and abandoning the causes of suffering and achieving the full results of the practice." Yet MN 2 describes how inappropriate attention involves "Was I in the past", "How was I in the past", "Will I be in the future", "How will I be in the future", which seems to be where talk of rebirth invariably ends up. This argument runs afoul of its own criticism.

The third argument involves the idea that "if one's experience of awakening doesn't match the descriptions in the Canon, one would do well to examine one's motivation for wanting to claim a canonical label for that experience." While thinking of the Canon as a homogenous bulwark of authority is par for the course vis-a-vis the Theravada, it's rather naive - even thinking of the four main Nikayas in this way is inaccurate; indeed, differences in which texts are taken as authoritative is reflected in the great jhana debate as well. It's certainly a much more complex textual environment, as a recent post in the Early Buddhism Resources thread sums up.

:shrug:

:soap:

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:32 pm

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:06 pm

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Buckwheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Buckwheat » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:20 pm

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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ancientbuddhism
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby ancientbuddhism » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:21 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


Buckwheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Buckwheat » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:47 pm

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:18 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:17 pm


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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:49 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Lazy_eye
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:56 pm

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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:13 pm


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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:49 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:50 pm



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