China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa City in

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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:25 pm

Indrajala wrote:Look at what a catastrophic failure Gandhi and his team were.





No, this is not correct.



Partition resulted in millions of avoidable deaths and untold suffering.


Not Gandhi's fault. He actively opposed Partition. In fact the Congress Party was entirely opposed to it.

Partition was brought about by the Mountbatten plan, in response to the Muslim League's demands for a separate state, and almost entirely contrived by the British.

The British did a lot of good in India and it'd be nice if people recognized that.


The harm to India done by the British to India was recognized from the beginning: Edumund Burke in a speech said:

What would you call it? To call it tyranny sublimed into madness would be too faint an image; yet this very madness is the principle upon which the ministers at your right hand have proceeded in their estimate of the revenues of the Carnatic, when they were providing, not supply for the establishments of its protection, but rewards for the authors of its ruin...Never did oppression light the nuptial torch; never did extortion and usury spread out the genial bed. Do any of you think that England, so wasted, would, under such a nursing attendance, so rapidly and cheaply recover?


http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboa ... chap11.htm


They weren't perfect and there were plenty of opportunistic characters, sure, but overall they did more good than harm. If you look at the mess India is in today, you might appreciate how British colonial rule made a lot of sense even back in the day.


The mess India is today is a direct result of British Mismanagement and interference in India civilization.

It was the British who rediscovered many of the Buddhist sites around the subcontinent, too. Their contributions to Indology can't be overlooked.


Yes, someday someone will quip -- "The Chinese contribution to Tibetology cannot be over looked." Hardly even a booby prize, and of little concern to Indians for whom Buddhadharma had been dead for more than a thousand years.


That's absurd. The state which has a monopoly on violence has overwhelming authority over the populace.


The British thought that, and they were wrong in the case of the Colonies, in the case of India and a number of other places.

That's just reality.


No, it is conservative defeatism. History does not bear your pessimism out.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Jikan » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Partition resulted in millions of avoidable deaths and untold suffering.


Not Gandhi's fault. He actively opposed Partition. In fact the Congress Party was entirely opposed to it.

Partition was brought about by the Mountbatten plan, in response to the Muslim League's demands for a separate state, and almost entirely contrived by the British.

The British did a lot of good in India and it'd be nice if people recognized that.


The harm to India done by the British to India was recognized from the beginning: Edumund Burke in a speech said:

What would you call it? To call it tyranny sublimed into madness would be too faint an image; yet this very madness is the principle upon which the ministers at your right hand have proceeded in their estimate of the revenues of the Carnatic, when they were providing, not supply for the establishments of its protection, but rewards for the authors of its ruin...Never did oppression light the nuptial torch; never did extortion and usury spread out the genial bed. Do any of you think that England, so wasted, would, under such a nursing attendance, so rapidly and cheaply recover?


http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboa ... chap11.htm


They weren't perfect and there were plenty of opportunistic characters, sure, but overall they did more good than harm. If you look at the mess India is in today, you might appreciate how British colonial rule made a lot of sense even back in the day.


The mess India is today is a direct result of British Mismanagement and interference in India civilization.

It was the British who rediscovered many of the Buddhist sites around the subcontinent, too. Their contributions to Indology can't be overlooked.


Yes, someday someone will quip -- "The Chinese contribution to Tibetology cannot be over looked." Hardly even a booby prize, and of little concern to Indians for whom Buddhadharma had been dead for more than a thousand years.


That's absurd. The state which has a monopoly on violence has overwhelming authority over the populace.


The British thought that, and they were wrong in the case of the Colonies, in the case of India and a number of other places.

That's just reality.


No, it is conservative defeatism. History does not bear your pessimism out.


:good:

worthwhile reading: The Many-Headed Hydra, by Linebaugh & Rediker. with apologies for the off-topic post.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Sherlock » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:57 pm

I would say rather that Indrajala is being too optimistic about China's chances in the future. China has demographic problems (gender imbalance, ageing population), resource problems, pollution problems, etc.

Chinese elites are sending their children out of China, that more than anything else, shows how much hope they have in their own country IMO.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby JKhedrup » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:04 pm

Yes, and as China becomes a net food importer this will pose a whole new set of additional pressures.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:10 pm

JKhedrup wrote:Yes, and as China becomes a net food importer this will pose a whole new set of additional pressures.



Indeed.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby JKhedrup » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:31 pm

China is presently 95 per cent self-sufficient in food. Demand, however, will rise until at least 2030, when China’s population will peak. Demand will also be influenced by a rising middle class, who will demand more nutritious food. From a supply perspective, China will face a number of challenges, including the need for greater access to fresh water and a decline in the availability of arable land. Food production will have to be more efficient and place greater reliance on research, science, technology, innovation and education. China will also require greater access to food imports, at a time when other parts of the world will also be vying for this potentially declining commodity.



- See more at: http://www.futuredirections.org.au/publ ... 7invk.dpuf

According to the World Bank, China’s population in 2011 was 1.34 billion. This is expected to grow until about 2030, when it will peak between 1.45 and 1.5 billion. China’s annual fertility rate is 1.5 live births per woman and is well below the 2.1 level required to maintain an existing population. While total fertility rates are low, the expected increase in population to 2030 is due to an increased average life expectancy and the so-called “demographic bulge”: a high proportion of women at child bearing age. China also faces the effects of a rapidly ageing population. According to a 2010 census, there were 180 million Chinese aged over 60. This is expected to double by 2030. A corollary to the problem of an ageing population is a declining workforce. In 2010, for instance, there were 116 million people aged between 20 and 24. By 2030 this is expected to drop to 67 million. Expressed differently, the ratio of dependents to workers, which is below 40 per cent today, will increase to 50 per cent by 2032
. - See more at: http://www.futuredirections.org.au/publ ... 7invk.dpuf

With these kind of demographics and food security issues my belief is that China's period as the major world superpower will be very short lived.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Luke » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:07 pm

Indrajala wrote:It is like they dislike war and therefore think it should go away because they find it disagreeable.

Pardon me, Ven. Indrajala, but do you enjoy war then??

Malcolm wrote:The best work in Tibetan Buddhism by Tibetans is being done in Tibet.

Also the best practitioners and Lamas are in Tibet for the most part, not in India.

One hopeful and beautiful thing which I saw in Tibet a few years ago were some new monasteries which had been built. I hope that they will be successful and can stay out of harm's way...
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:57 am

Luke wrote:
Indrajala wrote:It is like they dislike war and therefore think it should go away because they find it disagreeable.

Pardon me, Ven. Indrajala, but do you enjoy war then??


No, of course not. I just know it will never go away. I think as a Buddhists, particularly within the scope of Mahāyāna, our moral and ethical calculations need to recognize this rather than hoping for a peaceful world. Such unwarranted idealism renders one's ethics dysfunctional and unrealistic.

I think a lot of pre-modern authors recognized this as well. I did my MA thesis on Fazang's commentary on the bodhisattva precepts. He was quite realistic, recognizing that in some cases the possession and use of weapons was warranted if it was to preserve order, which was in direct contradiction to the precept against possessing weapons. The alternative was law of the jungle. And in his day the absence of strong court power in China would have meant quick conquest by the imperial Tibetans, northern horsemen or rogue generals.

In our world it is often about choosing the lesser of evils.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:05 am

Indrajala wrote:
In our world it is often about choosing the lesser of evils.


This is hardly a Buddhist ethic, Mahāyāna or otherwise.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:16 am

Malcolm wrote:
Indrajala wrote:
In our world it is often about choosing the lesser of evils.


This is hardly a Buddhist ethic, Mahāyāna or otherwise.


Are you unaware of the Yogācārabhūmi Śāstra?

“If the bodhisattva sees a thief about to kill many beings out of a craving for wealth, or about to harm a venerable śrāvaka, pratyekabuddha or bodhisattva, or about to create much karma [for which he will be reborn in] Avīci Hell, seeing such things he thinks, 'If I sever that evil being's life I will fall into hell [naraka]. If it not be severed, then the karma [for which he will be reborn in] Avīci Hell will see him undergo much suffering. I should kill him and fall into hell rather than ever allow him to undergo the suffering of Avīci Hell.' Like this the bodhisattva makes an aspiration and thinks, 'I will have a virtuous or neutral mind towards the being.' Knowing in the future what is to come, he thus generates deep shame and with a compassionate mind severs the life [of the thief]. It is due to these causes and conditions that there is no violation of the bodhisattva precepts, and much merit is produced.”
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:30 am

Indrajala wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Indrajala wrote:
In our world it is often about choosing the lesser of evils.


This is hardly a Buddhist ethic, Mahāyāna or otherwise.


Are you unaware of the Yogācārabhūmi Śāstra?

“If the bodhisattva sees a thief about to kill many beings out of a craving for wealth, or about to harm a venerable śrāvaka, pratyekabuddha or bodhisattva, or about to create much karma [for which he will be reborn in] Avīci Hell, seeing such things he thinks, 'If I sever that evil being's life I will fall into hell [naraka]. If it not be severed, then the karma [for which he will be reborn in] Avīci Hell will see him undergo much suffering. I should kill him and fall into hell rather than ever allow him to undergo the suffering of Avīci Hell.' Like this the bodhisattva makes an aspiration and thinks, 'I will have a virtuous or neutral mind towards the being.' Knowing in the future what is to come, he thus generates deep shame and with a compassionate mind severs the life [of the thief]. It is due to these causes and conditions that there is no violation of the bodhisattva precepts, and much merit is produced.”


That is not an argument for a lesser evil, in my opinion. It is a very different kind of argument, it is an argument for the greatest good.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby greentara » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:29 am

Nehru who seemed unable to deal with the Muslim League and lastly Jinnah's obstinacy and his refusal to budge, so the all Indian party leaders, except the Mahatma, acquiesced to Jinnah's plan to divide India, which made it easy for Mountbatten to proceed.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Sönam » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:35 am

Indrajala wrote:...
I think as a Buddhists, particularly within the scope of Mahāyāna, our moral and ethical calculations need to recognize this rather than hoping for a peaceful world. Such unwarranted idealism renders one's ethics dysfunctional and unrealistic.


much curious ... it sounds to fall more under divination and magic than even moral and ethical calculations ... which was already curious. "Idealism vs ethic" ... funny one too.

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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:49 am

I would argue that the crux of Mahayana doctrine itself is idealistic- the wish for all sentient beings to achieve enlightenment, the impetus for one's own spiritual practice the desire to help them towards that goal. You can't get much more idealistic than that. (And that idealism is what keeps me going in my own personal practice, otherwise I am by nature too lazy to bother!)
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:58 am

Malcolm wrote:That is not an argument for a lesser evil, in my opinion. It is a very different kind of argument, it is an argument for the greatest good.


Potatoh, potatoe.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:35 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Malcolm wrote:That is not an argument for a lesser evil, in my opinion. It is a very different kind of argument, it is an argument for the greatest good.


Potatoh, potatoe.


You are ignoring the explicit argument that this form of killing, far from being evil, is actually meritorious, and bnefits everyone involved, especially the person being killed. Lesser evil thought experiments never run along these lines.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby kirtu » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:18 am

Malcolm wrote:
Indrajala wrote:
Malcolm wrote:That is not an argument for a lesser evil, in my opinion. It is a very different kind of argument, it is an argument for the greatest good.


Potatoh, potatoe.


You are ignoring the explicit argument that this form of killing, far from being evil, is actually meritorious, and bnefits everyone involved, especially the person being killed. Lesser evil thought experiments never run along these lines.


It benefits the one being killed too as they do not commit a great crime and accrue the karma of falling into hell. However in order to do this one would have to have perfectly clear clairvoyance.

Then there is the infamous example of Ra Lotsawa who bragged of killing 13 or so Vajraholders, all of whom were on the Path of Seeing.

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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby anjali » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:06 pm

Malcolm wrote: Ironically, Tibetan Buddhism in India is pretty moribund.

The best work in Tibetan Buddhism by Tibetans is being done in Tibet.

Also the best practitioners and Lamas are in Tibet for the most part, not in India.

The Tibetans in Tibet are not really thrilled with the diaspora Tibetans.

Would you, or someone else also in the know, say more about this? As someone with absolutely no insight into the current state of Buddhism within Tibet, I get the impression that the backbone of Buddhism in Tibet has been broken and that cultural genocide by China is steadily proceeding. Is this not the case? Is Buddhism within Tibet resilient? Or is it fragmented to the point of unsustainability, even though there may be strong pockets of practice?
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:10 pm

anjali wrote:
Malcolm wrote: Ironically, Tibetan Buddhism in India is pretty moribund.

The best work in Tibetan Buddhism by Tibetans is being done in Tibet.

Also the best practitioners and Lamas are in Tibet for the most part, not in India.

The Tibetans in Tibet are not really thrilled with the diaspora Tibetans.

Would you, or someone else also in the know, say more about this? As someone with absolutely no insight into the current state of Buddhism within Tibet, I get the impression that the backbone of Buddhism in Tibet has been broken and that cultural genocide by China is steadily proceeding. Is this not the case? Is Buddhism within Tibet resilient? Or is it fragmented to the point of unsustainability, even though there may be strong pockets of practice?


Quite the opposite -- Dharma in Tibet, while under siege, has experienced a massive intellectual resurgence, especially in Eastern Tibet, Amdo and Golok -- with thousands of books being published in Tibetan language every year on all subjects.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Indrajala » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:Quite the opposite -- Dharma in Tibet, while under siege, has experienced a massive intellectual resurgence, especially in Eastern Tibet, Amdo and Golok -- with thousands of books being published in Tibetan language every year on all subjects.


That rather undermines or at least takes away from the arguments of diaspora Tibetans who say Buddhism is being systematically crushed and eradicated from Tibet.
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