Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:41 am

Tibetan Muslims. I had no idea. I really do have a lot to learn.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Namgyal » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:03 am

Ikkyu, things are not what they seem. For example, in the photograph of HHDL with Tibetan Muslim women a couple are wearing full face coverings. Why are they wearing the fashion of the old Ottoman Turkish court? In al-Quran it simply advises women to cover their hair and dress modestly, much like the present day Plymouth Brethren in Christianity. The Ottomans invented the full body covering for women because they were obsessed with social class and considered ordinary people too low class to even gaze on their womenfolk, so it is a social convention that has nothing to do with the Islamic religion. As for the crusades, your assessment is completely wrong, then as now, it was the Christians who were the aggressors. Muslim soldiers refused to engage in close combat with Christian knights because of their extreme body odour, having washed only once in their lives and having travelled thousands of miles in their plate armour it must have been almost enough to kill enemies without requiring a sword.
Last edited by Raksha on Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:09 am

Publishing long lists of the alleged or confirmed grievous acts of only one category of actors, on the other hand, is not thoughtful analysis.


No it isn't. And I too think we have to be careful about developing a general aversion for a large group of people based on the actions of a minority within that group.
However, this thread was about Buddhist Temples destroyed in Bangladesh so it seems to make sense to post about this topic, the reality of the situation, and why the Buddhists there are worthy of protecting, and what we can do to help them without violating the spirit of the dharma.

I posted a thread or two about the atrocities of the PRC army in Tibet as well and several people joined to call them out for their actions. They were not called Sinophobic, and the discussion remained relatively brief and simple.

I do understand, though, that the Rohinga Muslim thread turned quite ugly and there was a lot of vitriol, so perhaps that is why people are extra sensitive around this issue.

As I said, I think the thrust of the response should be around developing a system of secular ethics, outside of religion, that all people can follow regardless of their affiliation. HHDL says that religion is not enough in the modern pardigm.

Sometimes I think it is easy for us as Westerners who enjoy the full protections of our countries to sit and speak of idealisms, identity politics, philosophy. But for people without those protections- Rohingas in Burma, Buddhists in Bangladesh- they do not have such luxuries. Part of the reason it is difficult for me to file this under "general atrocities, karma of sentient beings" folder in this instance is because I have had many connections with Bangladeshi Buddhists. For me they are not nameless, faceless people on the other side of the world. And so when I see very little being done to help them, it is a disappointment. Just as the silence of the Western countries about the situation in Tibet is a disappointment.



And standards should be the same across the board. No exceptions under the guise of sensitivity or understanding. As human beings we are intelligent, thinking creatures and it is possible for us to all get along if we try to play according to the same rules.

If everyone fights for their own advantage the result it disastrous. Imagine a world war fought with nuclear weapons.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:50 pm

Raksha wrote:The long term solution is a population exchange in which the Chakmas are moved to Myanmar and the troublemaking Rohingyas are dumped back in Bangladesh. The problem is the perception that peace loving Buddhists are an easy target. What's needed is a global Buddhist Defence League, supported by Buddhists throughout the world. Whenever there is the slightest perception of a threat to fellow Muslims countless millions will be donated to the cause by Saudi Arabia, and extremists throughout the world will swear bloody revenge. Conversely, we Buddhists, who appear to have no such collective identity, will have a good debate and hand-wringing session. The truth is that not all Buddhists are naturally gentle like the Chakmas. We should recruit young Mongols and Gurkhas, train them in Buddhist kungfu, equip them with kevlar and German assault rifles donated by Western Buddhists, and parachute them into the Chittagong Hill Tracts as licensed private security teams. At the first sign of strength these rabid mobs of extremists, charging forward to murder our monks, will turn tail and run in the opposite direction, like the cowards they are...doubtless they will later claim they were victimised and demand compensation.
Ethnic cleansing and vigilante-style military intervention, I am sure the Buddha would agree completely with your testosterone fueled solution.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Namgyal » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:50 pm

Ha Ha...what are the wrathful worldly gods for Greg? What did they do in Shaolin temple Greg? What did Guru Rinpoche do with the evil Bonpo priests Greg.,.did he give them a posie of flowers and a smack on the wrist? There is such a thing as a 'fire Buddha' Greg, but clearly you have never heard of it. So carry on with your own oestrogen fuelled solution, and meanwhile, beyond your vision, others will protect you and other Buddhists with methods beyond your understanding.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:03 pm

Just keep in mind that

a) you're not a god
b) you're not a monk, much less from shaolin (their connection with Buddhism at this point seems thin if any)
c) definitively you are not Guru Rinpoche. :lol:

I know you mean well and only want to protect the monks, but your solution may worsen things. Sure, the police and even the army have utility when it comes to protection, but more often than not they are used to protect scoundrels instead of decent folk.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:20 pm

Raksha wrote:Ha Ha...what are the wrathful worldly gods for Greg?
Well, not for genocidal murder, that's for sure. And, just in case you didn't know, those that depended on wrathful worldly gods got their asses kicked by atheists. Lest we forget.
What did they do in Shaolin temple Greg?
Depends on who you ask. Mainly they got their asses whipped and spent lots of time rebuilding the charred remains of their temple.
What did Guru Rinpoche do with the evil Bonpo priests Greg
You are comparing yourself, your views and your capacities to those of Guru Rinpoche?
There is such a thing as a 'fire Buddha' Greg, but clearly you have never heard of it.
Clearly you have no understanding of mystical symbology.
So carry on with your own oestrogen fuelled solution...
It's not my oestrogen fueled solution, if you bothered reading the thread you will see that they are the words of the Buddha.
..and meanwhile, beyond your vision, others will protect you and other Buddhists with methods beyond your understanding.
The only beyond you are aware of is beyond logic, intelligence, wisdom and wholesome conduct.

Using the Dharma to justify and rationalise a genocidal program?
(20) When our minds are unclear and our hearts are unhappy,
We are bored doing virtue but excited by vice,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we’ve led others to acts of nonvirtue;
Hereafter let’s never provide the conditions
That rouse them to follow their negative traits.
...
(56) We are drawn to the sufferings of miserable rebirths,
Yet mindless of pain, we go after its cause.
Trample him, trample him, dance on the head
Of this treacherous concept of selfish concern.
Tear out the heart of this self-centered butcher
Who slaughters our chance to gain final release.
...
(68) We have selfish desires and horrible anger
Which fester inside us, we would never admit;
Yet without provocation we criticize others
And self-righteously charge them with faults we possess.
...
(77) Someone gives us advice from the depths of his heart,
Which is for our own good, but is harsh to our ears,
And with anger we view him as if he’s our foe.
Yet when someone without any true feelings for us
Deceitfully tells us what we like to hear,
With no taste or discernment we’re kind in return.
Trample him, trample him, dance on the head
Of this treacherous concept of selfish concern.
Tear out the heart of this self-centered butcher
Who slaughters our chance to gain final release.
...
(92) O mighty destroyer of selfishness-demons.
With body of wisdom unchained from all bonds,
Yamantaka, come brandish your skull-headed bludgeon
Of egoless wisdom of voidness and bliss.
Without any misgivings, now wield your fierce weapon
And wrathfully swing it three times round your head.

(93) With all of your fierceness, come smash this foul enemy!
Burst ego-concepts with your wisdom’s great might!
With your boundless compassion, protect us from suffering
The miseries caused by our self-centered actions;
Destroy our self-cherishing once and for all!

(94) With all of the sufferings that others experience,
Smother completely our selfish concern.
The sufferings of others arise from five poisons;
Thus whichever delusion afflicts other beings
Take it to smother delusions of self.
Dharmarakshita The Wheel of Sharp Weapons
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby kirtu » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:43 pm

Raksha wrote:The long term solution is a population exchange in which the Chakmas are moved to Myanmar and the troublemaking Rohingyas are dumped back in Bangladesh.


Population movements to resolve ethnic conflicts have never worked in all of recorded human history. They spark full scale civil war.

What's needed is a global Buddhist Defence League, supported by Buddhists throughout the world.


We cannot have a Buddhist Taliban. Already the Sri Lankans committed full scale genocide supported by Buddhist nationalism. We can't have it at all.

The ethnic conflicts between Buddhists and Muslims in Bangladesh, Myanmar and Thailand have been going on for at least 60 years and have largely been unaddressed. Would you like to help create peace in the region?

Whenever there is the slightest perception of a threat to fellow Muslims countless millions will be donated to the cause by Saudi Arabia, and extremists throughout the world will swear bloody revenge. Conversely, we Buddhists, who appear to have no such collective identity, will have a good debate and hand-wringing session. The truth is that not all Buddhists are naturally gentle like the Chakmas. We should recruit young Mongols and Gurkhas, train them in Buddhist kungfu, equip them with kevlar and German assault rifles donated by Western Buddhists, and parachute them into the Chittagong Hill Tracts as licensed private security teams. At the first sign of strength these rabid mobs of extremists, charging forward to murder our monks, will turn tail and run in the opposite direction, like the cowards they are...doubtless they will later claim they were victimised and demand compensation.


The kind of force proposed is not likely to address the problem. This is a long term commitment and is just unreasonable. This will get people killed dead.

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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Virgo » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:52 pm

Samsara is what it is and life is tough. You either have the merit to live long, in a free society and practice or you don't. That is why when the texts say one should not even commit the slightest negative action, and one should make merit whenever possible, they are being very serious. Human birth itself is very rare. Having a good and happy, complete existence in the human realm rarer still, and having the opportunity to practice.. well now, that is really freaking rare. So remember this: you might die tomorrow, nothing is promised in samsara. Dharma is the only thing that matters. You've died a million times, and you will die a million more, so practice now.

No matter what form of Buddhism you practice, this kind of understanding is essential.

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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby viniketa » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:01 pm

The Buddha told the rakṣa, "You all should accept and uphold the precepts in the Buddha Dharma. By upholding the precepts, after the passing away of the rakṣa's body, you will then be able to attain a rebirth in the heaven to enjoy the blessing and bliss."
The Dharani Sutra of the Buddha on Longevity The Extinction of Offences And the Protection of Young Children


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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby dharmagoat » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:43 am

Raksha wrote:The long term solution is a population exchange in which the Chakmas are moved to Myanmar and the troublemaking Rohingyas are dumped back in Bangladesh. The problem is the perception that peace loving Buddhists are an easy target. What's needed is a global Buddhist Defence League, supported by Buddhists throughout the world. Whenever there is the slightest perception of a threat to fellow Muslims countless millions will be donated to the cause by Saudi Arabia, and extremists throughout the world will swear bloody revenge. Conversely, we Buddhists, who appear to have no such collective identity, will have a good debate and hand-wringing session. The truth is that not all Buddhists are naturally gentle like the Chakmas. We should recruit young Mongols and Gurkhas, train them in Buddhist kungfu, equip them with kevlar and German assault rifles donated by Western Buddhists, and parachute them into the Chittagong Hill Tracts as licensed private security teams. At the first sign of strength these rabid mobs of extremists, charging forward to murder our monks, will turn tail and run in the opposite direction, like the cowards they are...doubtless they will later claim they were victimised and demand compensation.

Raksha, when I first read this I thought you were joking, and I found it rather humorous. Now it seems that you weren't joking...
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:50 am

Population transfers are disastrous. Look at the suffering caused during the partition of India and Pakistan. Similarly I spoke with a Turkish man who told me similar programs by Turkey and Greece had sad consequences for families on both sides.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Namgyal » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:54 am

dharmagoat wrote: Raksha, when I first read this I thought you were joking, and I found it rather humorous. Now it seems that you weren't joking...


I was rather joking as far the content of my post is concerned (Mongol Shaolin etc.) but I wasn't joking about my belief that Buddhists should consider the possibility that forceful self-defence may be required in the future.

kirtu wrote: We cannot have a Buddhist Taliban.


Why not?

Dechen Norbu wrote: you're not a monk, much less from shaolin


There were a couple of genuine Shaolin masters who escaped China in the 1940s, as I should know having spent twenty years being tortured by one of them.

viniketa wrote: ''The Buddha told the rakṣa, "You all should accept and uphold the precepts in the Buddha Dharma..."


:good:

Regrettably, in my youth I excelled at violence and killing, before I encountered the precious Dharma. So when I see wicked men attacking the legacy of Lord Buddha, and brutally murdering gentle monks, women and children, my first thought is simply to kill them and save the innocents. Various lamas have pointed out to me the shortcomings of this mentality, and I am trying my very best to replace it with :heart:
Nevertheless, it is worth noting that no lama has ever criticised me directly...on the contrary, they have often asked me to use my skills to protect them and their temples.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Indrajala » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:58 am

Raksha wrote:Regrettably, in my youth I excelled at violence and killing, before I encountered the precious Dharma.


You ever kill someone?
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:08 pm

Raksha wrote:There were a couple of genuine Shaolin masters who escaped China in the 1940s, as I should know having spent twenty years being tortured by one of them.
Somehow the idea of a genuine Mahayana Buddhist monk spending 20 years torturing somebody seems like a complete and utter oxymoron (or a lie, or the height of hypocrisy).

What are you trying to say here?
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Namgyal » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:53 pm

gregkavarnos wrote: Somehow the idea of a genuine Mahayana Buddhist monk spending 20 years torturing somebody seems like a complete and utter oxymoron (or a lie, or the height of hypocrisy). What are you trying to say here?


Wrong end of the stick again, brother. The old way of Shaolin training, which no one in mainland China even remembers, was harsh, brutal and unimaginably painful for the mind and body. There are no words to adequately describe it.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:04 pm

Raksha wrote:Wrong end of the stick again, brother. The old way of Shaolin training, which no one in mainland China even remembers, was harsh, brutal and unimaginably painful for the mind and body. There are no words to adequately describe it.
Yes, well... Luckily for me I grew out of the Shaolin monk kung-fu fantasy early in my martial arts and Buddhist "career". REAL EARLY.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby mindyourmind » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:26 pm

You just have to love the internet :applause:
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby kirtu » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:44 pm

Raksha wrote:
kirtu wrote: We cannot have a Buddhist Taliban.


Why not?


Because we then extinguish the Buddhadharma all by ourselves.

I am not a pacifist, btw and grew up in a military family and was in the military. In principle I am not opposed to forceful defense including possibly using killing weapons. But once we go down that road it is difficult to control. If you train people to use weapons in what is a low-grade civil war you will just create more suffering.

Ideally people in Bangladesh will just realize that harming other people is contrary to their own self-interests (however most societies do not realize this or realize it only shallowly). The other option (maybe) is for the Bangladeshi Buddhists to move to India or Nepal or possibly to withdraw to really remote regions of Bangladesh (if they exist).

Dechen Norbu wrote: you're not a monk, much less from shaolin


There were a couple of genuine Shaolin masters who escaped China in the 1940s, as I should know having spent twenty years being tortured by one of them.


We would all like to be Bruce Lee. In reality most people cannot learn martial arts sufficiently for actual combat - only for short term protection. The other issue is that hand to hand fighting can be bloody and vicious and most people can't be that vicious. The third thing is that most martial arts is stopped dead with a bullet (Indian Jones, Raiders of the Last Arc -that guy may have been the best swordsman alive but it didn't matter).

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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Namgyal » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:21 pm

kirtu wrote: But once we go down that road it is difficult to control...you will just create more suffering.


I know that, but standing by and doing nothing is very difficult for me to accept.

kirtu wrote: Ideally people in Bangladesh will just realize that harming other people is contrary to their own self-interests (however most societies do not realize this or realize it only shallowly). The other option (maybe) is for the Bangladeshi Buddhists to move to India or Nepal or possibly to withdraw to really remote regions of Bangladesh (if they exist).


None of these are viable options, and as others have pointed out, my own idea for population exchange with Myanmar is equally flawed.

kirtu wrote: We would all like to be Bruce Lee. In reality most people cannot learn martial arts sufficiently for actual combat - only for short term protection. The other issue is that hand to hand fighting can be bloody and vicious and most people can't be that vicious. The third thing is that most martial arts is stopped dead with a bullet (Indian Jones, Raiders of the Last Arc -that guy may have been the best swordsman alive but it didn't matter).


I also loved that scene in Indiana Jones, but I have to say that there is more to martial arts than you make out. Many years go I met a Chinese monk who could knock a man down with a palm strike from thirty feet away, even through a wall. Of course to get to such a level he must have a heart incapable of harming others in the first place, and also such a monk would always manage to foresee and avoid conflict...but just suppose for the sake of argument that he didn't, then I doubt anything could stop him. The truth is always stranger than fiction.
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