Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
User avatar
Thomas Amundsen
Posts: 2034
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:50 am
Location: Helena, MT
Contact:

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Yeah, I remember some of that from Crystal and the Way of Light..I meant a Bonpo text specifically,if you had a recommendation.
The Six Lamps and its commentary.

Awesome, thanks!
I think Naked Seeing has a translation of that. Not sure if there are other English translations available?
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

tomamundsen wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The Six Lamps and its commentary.

Awesome, thanks!
I think Naked Seeing has a translation of that. Not sure if there are other English translations available?
Yes.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17090
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

tomamundsen wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The Six Lamps and its commentary.

Awesome, thanks!
I think Naked Seeing has a translation of that. Not sure if there are other English translations available?
So many things on my wish list now, sigh:)
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Vasana
Posts: 2231
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Vasana »

Panaesthesia wrote:
Vasana wrote: Ontogenesis of attention is a good phrase. Let's not forget that traditional texts like the hatha pradipika mention that the sound is related to the state of the individuals nadis,bindu/thigle, prana, cakras etc Which is symulatenously in relation to attention and experience ...The sound can also change in relation to any generation/completion practice intrinsically connected with the subtle body and with yoga asanas,pranayana,Guru Yoga etc

In short, attention not merely restricted to the mind, but extended through and as the physical and subtle body-mind complex as you mentioned elsewhere.
I know it's been a while, Vasana, but while cleaning up some old emails, I came back to this post you made. The quoted text above, which I didn't pay enough attention to when you originally posted it (because I went back to the States for six weeks and then didn't remember), is really important in my opinion and very applicable to where I've come with my own understanding of this technique. I have some friends who are seriously involved in Daoist energy practices and as you may know, the fundamental understanding there is coherent with what you wrote.

[...]
What you wrote in the quoted text, Vasana, has become integrated into my practice. Basically, simply through the placement of awareness on certain nadichakras, in an almost passive way, significantly changes the character of the sound. Attentional focus changes the intensity. Pranayama also does.
I'm really glad any info in the thread has been integrated into your practice in any way. The intensity, clarity and pitch of the sound can also vary depending on the time of day/night so i recommend experimenting with that same attentional focus at various times in the cycle of night and sleep. Completely immersing your attention in colour and light, either in localized places, or all pervasively can also influence the character of nada and most importantly, the capacity to enter experiences that enable us to abide in the natural state. [see semdzin posts above]

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's book, 'Healing with form, energy and light' is a good ,non-restricted access-point to some of these practices.
Panaesthesia wrote: Beyond that, I've decided that I no longer will use the word "sound" to refer to this support. [..]

So what I am calling it? "Resonance." And specifically "direct or immediate resonance" to distinguish it from what I am referring to as "sympathetic resonance," i.e. external pressure changes, or internal bodily vibrations, that are sensed by the hearing faculty, converted into nerve impulses, processed by the brain, and (in a simplifying gloss) interpreted by the mind as sounds.

I hope this isn't too much of a jumble of things...
Resonance is a good term but i still think any term will fall short of that which it refers to. It's a worth while exercise in attempting to combine the existing lexicon of the Nāda teachings with the physical,scientific factors involved in the process of sound, but it needs to be done very very carefully so as to not over complicate the practical aspects of Nāda yoga. The 'direct resonance' of nāda isn't strictly exclusive from, but can also be relational to sympathetic-resonance when utilizing mantra or repetition of Bijas for example. The sound of mantra or bija is internally produced but simultaneously heard by the hearing faculty ,felt by the physical and subtle body, with the breath and prana toned by the way it's sounded.Internal pressure changes of the prana/rlung moving within the nadis/tsa as they're unblocked at the cakra configurations could still technically be classed as internal bodily vibrations,albeit with much more subtlety.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
Panaesthesia
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Panaesthesia »

Vasana wrote:Resonance is a good term but i still think any term will fall short of that which it refers to. It's a worth while exercise in attempting to combine the existing lexicon of the Nāda teachings with the physical,scientific factors involved in the process of sound, but it needs to be done very very carefully so as to not over complicate the practical aspects of Nāda yoga. The 'direct resonance' of nāda isn't strictly exclusive from, but can also be relational to sympathetic-resonance when utilizing mantra or repetition of Bijas for example. The sound of mantra or bija is internally produced but simultaneously heard by the hearing faculty ,felt by the physical and subtle body, with the breath and prana toned by the way it's sounded.Internal pressure changes of the prana/rlung moving within the nadis/tsa as they're unblocked at the cakra configurations could still technically be classed as internal bodily vibrations,albeit with much more subtlety.
I finally realized how to get email notifications when there is a new addition to this topic here on dharmawheel. Sorry for not being around, I just didn't know anyone had responded to my last post.

Yes, Vasana, I agree with what you said, both about care, and about the "vibrational" aspects of the subtle energy body.

That said, I have since refined it, no longer using "direct resonance," but rather "autogenous resonance of selfless naturing." That may seem like an over-complication, but it is actually just a translation of the Tibetan "Dharmata Swayambhu Nada" (Self-arising Sound of the Dharmata), which of course needs: a) knowledge of Tibetan, b) access to a teaching on the subject, c) a clear understanding of what the Dharmata is, and d) an understanding that you are listening to something other than vibrations sensed by the hearing faculty, including the subtle vibrations of the energy body for whatever reason (that being the widely made assertion, for instance in the Bardo teachings, the self-arising sound of the luminesce bardo of Dharmata arise without the aide of a body). For example, I was talking with a spiritual friend who, when I mentioned the Dharmata, said "You mean the Dharmadātu!" and I said "No, I mean the Dharmata." but he had never heard of it apparently. So, I prefer to fit my words to my experience, rather than my experience to other's words, that way, at least one of us will understanding what I am saying.

So to explain: "autogenous" is used in the "arising immanently," rather than "self-arising" sense, because there is no self, and perhaps (I don't have the knowledge) the Tibetan "swayambhu" might have a similar meaning; "resonance" I explained earlier; "selfless naturing" because my direct experience has shown me that naturing does not require a nature to be the actor, that is, activity doesn't need someone or something to enact it, which is shunyata.
Malcolm wrote:You need to discover the sound of dharmatā. Then there is nothing left to understand about sound.
Yes, Malcolm, that is what I have been using, having discovered it at the age of 5.

There is more, I'll add it in another post. Thank you for listening.
Panaesthesia
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Panaesthesia »

The following is an unsolicited analysis of the blog posts that I previously gave links to above, but which I'll repeat here:
http://sciomorphogenesis.mindfully.be/p ... existence/
The post below is from another forum, the dharmaoverground.
Neko wrote:Ok, since this thread is about playing the game of comparing different models of awakening, and in particular the game of "is the blip (cessation) really a necessary part of every awakening experience?", I will try to put James' description of his path(s) onto the Theravadin maps as usually understood in this community.

From the point of view of what has shifted in James' "perspective", and in what experiential / phenomenological order, it looks like everything fits in very nicely with the MCTB maps:


James M Corrigan wrote: One day, I had the most amazing experience. I dissolved into utter perfection and love too brilliant to be anything at all. Nothing but unseen loving light.[A&P] I remember it happening one cold evening in late October the year I was 15. It was drizzling rain, and I was staring into a crack filled with moss, debris, insects, and small weeds between two walkway pavement stones on a street next to some railroad tracks. My friend was asking me if I was alright, except he wasn’t saying anything at all, he was just staring at me with concern in his heart, which I heard clearly. It was like that for me then. I had been doing something, as a way of comforting myself after the death of my mother, at the age of five, that I much later learned was a form of meditation. It was something that I spontaneously started doing. I was using what the Indians call the anāhata nāda, unstruck sound. And although focusing on those unborn sounds, which became increasingly complex over time, was comforting, it was really messing with my head. [ DN ]

One day, while meditating, I saw that there is no observer that endured through my experiences.[1] Which raised a question in my mind: “If there is no observer, then how does experience happen?” Another day, while meditating, I saw that there is nothing that has a single, permanent, independent, truly existing self.[2] Which raised a question in my mind: “If there is nothing to observe, then how does experience happen?” And on yet another day, while meditating, I watched as experience arose and saw it nakedly as a spontaneously creative, and illusory, evanescence that seemed to be its own conductor, weaving a rich tapestry of convoluted folds of light, sound, feelings, sensations, emotions, thoughts, and judgments. [3] Which raised a question in my mind: “If there is nothing at all with any true reality, then how does experience happen?”

I contemplated these questions for almost thirty years [12]

[...]

Having the habit of sitting for long periods, abiding, with hardly a thought, as the luminous naturing of Dharmata—the reverberations, arising as sounds and colored light, of the naturing of all appearances—I was amazed one day when something unusual happened. Suddenly, I realized where I was. It arrived like a flash of intuition, only not as a thought, for this was different. It was not so much something added, as something suddenly no longer there. It was that bare perspective that normally abided, a characterless perspective which didn’t so much disappear, as clarified, no longer lost immanently within the sounds and light, but present clearly, and that clearing was remarkably familiar. That bare perspective, that abided as the luminous naturing of Dharmata, suddenly paused, unmoving, unabiding, unhitched, just clearly there, present, holding all that was arising as a mother holds her newborn child still attached, lovingly, while the luminous naturing continued, not separate in any way, as if stillness and motion were the same, and this is when I realized it was the Now—the pure unchanging, unmoving presence immanent in the naturing. This clear Now that is the “ing” of all possible descriptions of what is happen-ing. The quality that all the words I tried to use to name it, ending in “-ness,” were after.

And I realized that this was definitive. This was the pure truth, at least as much as would ever show its face on this side of the Event Horizon.[4]

[A&P] 4th nana, Knowledge of the Arising and Passing Away.

Entrance into the Dark Night.

Then, a succession of path-moments:

[1] First Path, through the no-self gate.

[2] Second Path, further insight into emptiness.

[3] Third path, obsession with luminosity and clarity.

[12] Unclear what to do next, futher progress which is hard to pin down, so-called "twelfth path"

[4] Fourth path.
So, take that as you like. I'm not into labels, but my experience has been that this is an important form of practice that brings good results and should be more widely available for consideration by those searching for a practice best suited for them. For some, this will resonant quite strongly. And yes, that last was a pun :smile:
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Panaesthesia wrote:
"Dharmata Swayambhu Nada"
This is Sanskrit, not Tibetan. Tibetan would be rang byung chos nyid sgra, dharmatā svayambhu śabda.
"self-arising"
Self-arising, in Dzogchen teachings, means "arising from one's own state," rather than from "other."
Panaesthesia
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Panaesthesia »

Malcolm wrote:
Panaesthesia wrote:
"Dharmata Swayambhu Nada"
This is Sanskrit, not Tibetan. Tibetan would be rang byung chos nyid sgra, dharmatā svayambhu śabda.
Thank you for the correction Malcolm. My lack of attention to details like that shows why I should stick to my own language and my own words!
Panaesthesia wrote: "self-arising"
Malcolm wrote:Self-arising, in Dzogchen teachings, means "arising from one's own state," rather than from "other."
Ok, it's not as clean as I would hope. Since there is no "one" to have "one's own state," the "arising immanently" sense of "autogenous" is a better description of what is experienced.

Thanks again, for taking the time.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Panaesthesia wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Panaesthesia wrote:
"Dharmata Swayambhu Nada"
This is Sanskrit, not Tibetan. Tibetan would be rang byung chos nyid sgra, dharmatā svayambhu śabda.
Thank you for the correction Malcolm. My lack of attention to details like that shows why I should stick to my own language and my own words!
Panaesthesia wrote: "self-arising"
Malcolm wrote:Self-arising, in Dzogchen teachings, means "arising from one's own state," rather than from "other."
Ok, it's not as clean as I would hope. Since there is no "one" to have "one's own state," the "arising immanently" sense of "autogenous" is a better description of what is experienced.

Thanks again, for taking the time.
Worries about language are at best a distraction. The point is to distinguish karmically arisen appearances from appearances of pristine consciousness.
Panaesthesia
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Panaesthesia »

Malcolm wrote:The point is to distinguish karmically arisen appearances from appearances of pristine consciousness.
No, the point is to recognize the emptiness of all appearances, and the autogenous resonances of self-less naturing are, if you can access them fully, just standing there blowing raspberries and wiggling their hands with their thumbs in their ears at you for not recognizing it for what it isn't.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Panaesthesia wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The point is to distinguish karmically arisen appearances from appearances of pristine consciousness.
No, the point is to recognize the emptiness of all appearances...
Not going to argue with you about it. But it is as I have said. All appearances are empty. Some appearances arise from karma, some do not. In Dzogchen teachings, we work with the latter, including the sound of dharmatā, which is just a "sound" that arises from your own state, for example, the sound and sights that you hear and see in the bardo of dharmatā.
Panaesthesia
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Panaesthesia »

Malcolm wrote:Some appearances arise from karma, some do not. In Dzogchen teachings, we work with the latter, including the sound of dharmatā, which is just a "sound" that arises from your own state, for example, the sound and sights that you hear and see in the bardo of dharmatā.
Malcolm, respectfully, do you feel that you are adding anything to a discussion when you don't read what is offered, but comment on it anyway?

Yes, that is what I commune with, minus the Dzogchen teachings. You can give the practice a different name, you can call everything something different, but a breakthrough is a breakthrough. whether you call it "breakthrough" or trekchö, and I might not be practicing your version of tögal, but the result for me is the same. I spontaneously started practicing it at 5. I think this technique might be of interest to others who are interested in this thread. Perhaps you don't. I'll leave, so you get on with your one-size-fits-all Dzogchen practice. Out.
florin
Posts: 1340
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by florin »

Malcolm wrote:The point is to distinguish karmically arisen appearances from appearances of pristine consciousness.
Isn't this distinction somewhat unnecessary ?
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

florin wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The point is to distinguish karmically arisen appearances from appearances of pristine consciousness.
Isn't this distinction somewhat unnecessary ?
This distinction is the whole basis of Dzogchen teachings.
Panaesthesia
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Panaesthesia »

“Those who emanate to bring benefit to others must first practice this for, if not, then they will not have the ability to plant the seeds that bring forth such emanations. Hence, train in the sound of the elements.” (Seed of Secret Conduct Tantra)
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Panaesthesia wrote:“Those who emanate to bring benefit to others must first practice this for, if not, then they will not have the ability to plant the seeds that bring forth such emanations. Hence, train in the sound of the elements.” (Seed of Secret Conduct Tantra)
Right, but that means you have to find out which phase of the elements you are, and then practice the appropriate sound for many months.

It is all detailed in the commentary to the Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra.
Panaesthesia
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Panaesthesia »

“The stages of training with the three kāyas emphasize the qualities of the elements. By training with the sound of the supreme aspect of earth, fire, water, and wind, supreme attainment will be certain. The sound of water is roaring and carries the melodious sound of the ḍākinīs. To always engage and become familiar with this, it is certain that the nirmāṇakāya will be attained. The characteristic of earth is cool and heavy, possessing the sound of great Brahmā. To always engage and maintain balance with this will bring the certain attainment of the nirmāṇakāya. To accomplish the sambhogakāya,  by listening to the sound of fire, this reveals the sound of the great Viṣhṇu. Whoever listens to this will certainly attain the qualities of the dharmakāya: the characteristics of wind are cool and fierce and carry the sound of uniting with the king[1] of birds. If one knows how to constantly practice this, then that is training with the common aspect of the three kāyas.” (Reverberation of Sound Tantra)

My emphasis on the word "supreme" in the quote. Notice that each stage given above notes the common sound aspect and the supreme sound characterization of each element: "sound of water" - "sound (language) of the dākinīs," etc., except for earth, which doesn't commonly have a sound unless it's moving, so only the supreme aspect is pointed to (but look for low rumbles like kettle drums). The common sound aspect is given to characterize the inner resonances that one uses. Don't confuse the "four elements" with physical manifestations like waterfalls, fires, rocks pounded together, and wind. The supreme sound characterization is specified to make sure you don't make that error.

Place awareness on the related chakra associated with each element, gather the inner sound (which will be very subtle at first, thus "gather" it), and once gathered, draw it up to the next element by moving awareness. Do this in the order specified: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind (Air). Start with Fire though and bring it down to Earth, to ground yourself, since fire is associated with ego, and this isn't about you. Then continue, repeating fire in the correct location. The visions of the four lamps will naturally arise when you're ready, so no need to put your eyeballs at risk with a mudra as when the practice of Thögel is introduced.

This "preliminary" attains the "common aspects" of three kayas, and the common siddhis, and is a natural pathway into Thögel.

[1] The Garuḍa
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Panaesthesia wrote:“The stages of training with the three kāyas emphasize the qualities of the elements. By training with the sound of the supreme aspect of earth, fire, water, and wind, supreme attainment will be certain. The sound of water is roaring and carries the melodious sound of the ḍākinīs. To always engage and become familiar with this, it is certain that the nirmāṇakāya will be attained. The characteristic of earth is cool and heavy, possessing the sound of great Brahmā. To always engage and maintain balance with this will bring the certain attainment of the nirmāṇakāya. To accomplish the sambhogakāya,  by listening to the sound of fire, this reveals the sound of the great Viṣhṇu. Whoever listens to this will certainly attain the qualities of the dharmakāya: the characteristics of wind are cool and fierce and carry the sound of uniting with the king[1] of birds. If one knows how to constantly practice this, then that is training with the common aspect of the three kāyas.” (Reverberation of Sound Tantra)

My emphasis on the word "supreme" in the quote. Notice that each stage given above notes the common sound aspect and the supreme sound characterization of each element: "sound of water" - "sound (language) of the dākinīs," etc., except for earth, which doesn't commonly have a sound unless it's moving, so only the supreme aspect is pointed to (but look for low rumbles like kettle drums). The common sound aspect is given to characterize the inner resonances that one uses. Don't confuse the "four elements" with physical manifestations like waterfalls, fires, rocks pounded together, and wind. The supreme sound characterization is specified to make sure you don't make that error.

Place awareness on the related chakra associated with each element, gather the inner sound (which will be very subtle at first, thus "gather" it), and once gathered, draw it up to the next element by moving awareness. Do this in the order specified: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind (Air). Start with Fire though and bring it down to Earth, to ground yourself, since fire is associated with ego, and this isn't about you. Then continue, repeating fire in the correct location. The visions of the four lamps will naturally arise when you're ready, so no need to put your eyeballs at risk with a mudra as when the practice of Thögel is introduced.

This "preliminary" attains the "common aspects" of three kayas, and the common siddhis, and is a natural pathway into Thögel.

[1] The Garuḍa
First, Reverberation of Sound is a completely incorrect (but common) translation, and it comes from a late attempt to normalize the titles of the 17 tantras by back translating them into Sanskrit in the Derge Nyingma Gyudbum. This mistake is absent from the Tshamdrag and Tingkye editions where the original, non-Sanskrit title is preserved.

The thal gyur in the title has to be translated separately. Thal ba, as explained in the tantra itself and the commentary, refers to buddhafields which are strewn with precious powder (thal ba). Gyur ba refers to the transformation of the elements.
User avatar
Ayu
Global Moderator
Posts: 13255
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Post by Ayu »

This thread became quite controversial at the end and it seems to have finished it's course.
Locked

Return to “Meditation”