Intention

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.

Re: Intention

Postby Gwenn Dana » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:19 pm

Well. There are two experiences. That's all what counts. It does not really matter what you call one or the other. Differences are overrated anyway.
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Re: Intention

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:26 pm

Gwenn Dana wrote:Well. There are two experiences. That's all what counts. It does not really matter what you call one or the other. Differences are overrated anyway.
So why are you making them? ;)
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One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Intention

Postby oushi » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:30 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Intention and motive are synonymous, they are used interchangeably.

Only by those who do not see the difference :smile:. For those who are trying to work with their karma, understanding the difference is of great value.
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Re: Intention

Postby Gwenn Dana » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:36 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:So why are you making them? ;)


It was an attempt at communication.
A failed one, if I would judge it.
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Re: Intention

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:44 pm

oushi wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Intention and motive are synonymous, they are used interchangeably.

Only by those who do not see the difference :smile:. For those who are trying to work with their karma, understanding the difference is of great value.
Really? Care to give me a source for your theory? Thanks.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Intention

Postby oushi » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:08 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
oushi wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Intention and motive are synonymous, they are used interchangeably.

Only by those who do not see the difference :smile:. For those who are trying to work with their karma, understanding the difference is of great value.
Really? Care to give me a source for your theory? Thanks.

A dictionary is a good starting point. Then try wiki for intention and motivation. You are smart guy, if you spend some time with it, you will get it. Our discussion from Wilber topic should give you some hints.
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Re: Intention

Postby Gwenn Dana » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:16 pm

oushi wrote:if you spend some time with it, you will get it.


A cynic could say that requires either a motive to do so, or the intention to do it anyway.
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Re: Intention

Postby oushi » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:27 pm

Gwenn Dana wrote:
oushi wrote:if you spend some time with it, you will get it.


A cynic could say that requires either a motive to do so, or the intention to do it anyway.

Intention will arise when motivation is sufficient. Motivation is a way to trigger intention.
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Re: Intention

Postby Gwenn Dana » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:41 pm

oushi wrote:Motivation is a way to trigger intention.


I know management trainers who share that view. I usually call that "reaction", not "intention".
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Re: Intention

Postby oushi » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:49 pm

Gwenn Dana wrote:
oushi wrote:Motivation is a way to trigger intention.


I know management trainers who share that view. I usually call that "reaction", not "intention".

Intention is always a reaction, although you may sometimes be unaware of its cause.
Anyway, If I provide motives for practice, you may end up practicing intentionally for the next 20 years. That's exactly what Buddha did. :smile:
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Re: Intention

Postby Gwenn Dana » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:53 pm

Does love have a motive?
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Re: Intention

Postby oushi » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:12 pm

Gwenn Dana wrote:Does love have a motive?

No, although it all depends on the definition of love you are using. Broadly speaking, you cannot motive someone into loving someone. He may think it is reasonable to love this person, but he will not feel love. On the other hand, he may love someone without knowing why. :smile:
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Re: Intention

Postby Gwenn Dana » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:26 pm

If it needs a motive, it is not love.
If it needs a motive, it is mere liking, and can just as quickly turn into the opposite.

But there are more interesting questions that then follow.

Does any action that arises from this "love which does not have a motive" have a motive?
Would you call it without intention?
And can you "intend" to love?

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Re: Intention

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:34 pm

oushi wrote:A dictionary is a good starting point. Then try wiki for intention and motivation. You are smart guy, if you spend some time with it, you will get it. Our discussion from Wilber topic should give you some hints.
Thanks, but my grasp of the English language is good enough for me to know that intention and motivation are synonyms.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Intention

Postby Gwenn Dana » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:44 pm

The intention was to stab a knife into somebody.
The motivation may be something completely different.

Intention deals with what you're doing. Motivation asks a question why, to find a reason for it. Intention does not call for a reason.
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Re: Intention

Postby Simon E. » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:47 pm

Nice to see that you little scamps have so much time on your hands... :thumbsup:
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Re: Intention

Postby Gwenn Dana » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:53 pm

We got distracted from our important daily business to reflecting on love. :smile:
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Re: Intention

Postby moron » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:10 pm

oushi wrote:
Gwenn Dana wrote:Does love have a motive?

No, although it all depends on the definition of love you are using. Broadly speaking, you cannot motive someone into loving someone. He may think it is reasonable to love this person, but he will not feel love. On the other hand, he may love someone without knowing why. :smile:


Hi oushi,
I think that the love you describe have a motive but because of the fogy mind and failing to investigate at this moment the motive is just invisible(usually for most people ,when the beloved one hurt them in some way then motivation is reviled :) .My understanding for now is that it can not exist action without motivation.It may be that only Buddhas or Arahants can have this. What do you think?
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Re: Intention

Postby Gwenn Dana » Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:13 pm

As far as I see, what I attributed to "intention" here, which goes according to the difference of motive and intention in law, in some books I see described as "volition" by the Buddha. But that translation is difficult also. Since according to the Buddha that "volition" can cause three types of actions through the doors body, speech and thought. But current notions of "volition" usually imply that volition is based on rational control, which is not quite that.

So we can probably argue in circles over those terms, since there is more than one loop available. Maybe reflecting on love and actions that arise out of it, or trying to "intend to love" will yield more results.
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Re: Intention

Postby oushi » Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:36 pm

moron wrote:My understanding for now is that it can not exist action without motivation.It may be that only Buddhas or Arahants can have this. What do you think?

There is a mechanism that drives the body toward goals. Evolution based survival mechanism. It is unconscious. And there is another one that takes advantage of the first one. Working with ideas it develops a way to directs this mechanism toward goals he sees as valuable. It develops motives and presents them. If those motives are sufficient, intention arises. This is the "carrot" system of hope. There is also the "stick" system of stress.
So, we have a natural "being" that reacts to circumstances, and another one that comprehends reality through thoughts, projects them into the future, and tries to influence this natural "being" so his expectations can come true. This mechanism is driven by karma, and creates karma. When this natural "being" is left alone, there is unconditioned pleasure, which is a natural state.
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