Dealing with Discomfort in Zazen

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Wayfarer
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Dealing with Discomfort in Zazen

Post by Wayfarer »

I am working on increasing my sitting time to maybe hour sessions. In the past I've found it impossible as it is just too uncomfortable, but I've gotten used to it and sit for 45 minutes regularly. But you read tales of yogis who stay motionless for very long periods of time, hours or even days. I am not trying to get to that. But I observe in my own practice, there's a way of getting 'inside' the discomfort. You get into a zone where you're sort of 'inside the pain'. Once you're in that space, I think it's a lot closer to a state of concentration - you really just stay totally mindful of the discomfort, without thinking about when it will stop, how long you've been there, and so on. In making the discomfort an object of meditation, you forget yourself.

Maybe that is one meaning of Dogen's 'to study the self is to forget the self'!
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
muni
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Re: Dealing with Discomfort in Zazen

Post by muni »

Zazen is sitting, right?
As my body is harmed, i cannot long time sit without support. Sometimes there is no choice, no support, so I sat, there was as well teaching. The pain in body increased so strongly there was no room anymore, nothing other anymore as the sound of voice of the master. No many words were heard anymore, and just like by meditation as for example the union of sound- empty mind, there was nothing else. But as soon as the thinking commenting reacting mind popped up between sound and naked mind( and it did), the nerve pain was unbearable. I wanted to scream but was just sitting and looking holy there. The thinking is making a separation of *empty mind <----> sound* , then there is dualism or self and by that there is focus ( by self-subject to pain-object ) and so automatically pain/suffering is experienced.

Union empty mind-pain, reacting mind is dissolved completely into the union pain-emptiness? I often tried that and felt into an over-focus of the pain and panicked, so this didn’t work, I was struggling till surrendering of the reacting/thinking.
Also vision of for example empty spaciousness and being that, works. Then the pain is not wiped out but focus is gone and so unbearable discomfort is gone. As you say “once you are in that space” I read as well union of pain-emptiness.
The breath is also an object often used in which union arises and discomfort fades.

One thing is sure as soon as reacting mind is protesting, want to stop the pain, there is more focuss and so the pain increases. But me is told to sit comfortable, back straight, shoulders relax and that is enough.

I think it is not easy without having received some guidance into what is for example called single pointedness. But maybe that is because of my karmic bagage I find it without not easy. Talking about of course, goes always easier by me. But this pain is an opportunity to apply the teachings.
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Re: Dealing with Discomfort in Zazen

Post by narhwal90 »

I find discomfort (legs, an itch, etc) sometimes help sweep the monkey away, the trick being to not get caught up in it either. I last longest in socks on a bare floor or thin carpet, pillows or thick carpet quickly become uncomfortable. Repetition hasn't lengthened the bearable portion of the position yet but recovery has gotten considerably faster, I'm good for about 30 mins before I'm having substantial distracting trouble with my feet and ankles (in seiza). I spoke with a guy who attends the same session, he sits half-lotus in a solid chair and has discomfort of his own in a similar interval. Others in the session meditate in office chairs (springs, pivots, wheels etc) which I tried and found really distracting from the mechanism constantly in play, but I guess people get used to it too lol
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Re: Dealing with Discomfort in Zazen

Post by Wayfarer »

Muni wrote:Zazen is sitting, right?
That is the Zen term for sitting meditation, yes.

I sit half-lotus, I've never been able to sit in the lotus position.

Anyway, I'm glad not to be the only one having these issues. When I did the 10-day Vipassana Retreat, I wasn't able to stay still for much longer than a third of each session. I want to go back and do it again next year, 10 years later, and see if I can improve.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Re: Dealing with Discomfort in Zazen

Post by DGA »

Wayfarer wrote:
Muni wrote:Zazen is sitting, right?
That is the Zen term for sitting meditation, yes.

I sit half-lotus, I've never been able to sit in the lotus position.

Anyway, I'm glad not to be the only one having these issues. When I did the 10-day Vipassana Retreat, I wasn't able to stay still for much longer than a third of each session. I want to go back and do it again next year, 10 years later, and see if I can improve.
I have found it useful to work closely with the body in the "offseason" between retreats. Specifically, strengthening the core muscles, stretching the lower back and soas muscles regularly, and using good body mechanics in everyday life helps prevent injury in seated meditation, while reducing pain and making it more manageable.
TheNonduality
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Re: Dealing with Discomfort in Zazen

Post by TheNonduality »

Zazen is such a body practice and getting your posture down is crucial. I noticed that having perfect posture can unlock a yogic energy that is essential for long sits and long retreats. I probably spent the first 2 years of sitting practice working on my posture and I'm so glad I did.
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Re: Dealing with Discomfort in Zazen

Post by philji »

Wayfarer wrote:
Muni wrote:Zazen is sitting, right?
That is the Zen term for sitting meditation, yes.

I sit half-lotus, I've never been able to sit in the lotus position.

Anyway, I'm glad not to be the only one having these issues. When I did the 10-day Vipassana Retreat, I wasn't able to stay still for much longer than a third of each session. I want to go back and do it again next year, 10 years later, and see if I can improve.
Is the aim to keep the body still or the mind still?
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Re: Dealing with Discomfort in Zazen

Post by narhwal90 »

2wks ago I went further afield on my tuesday practice night and attended a "semi-secular" vipassana session which I've not gone to for a year or so. In the last year I've increased frequency and duration of seated meditation which really paid off, I could almost hang with the leader before having to change posture which was most gratifying. Last time I didn't make it to halfway before discomfort became distracting, this time I made it all the way through to the introduction and conversation in the last 10 minutes or so. What I found most helpful was her proposal to extend bodhicitta to the hurting portions of the body and be with them, previously I had adopted a more or less "we're doing this suck it up & get strong" sort of attitude- her method was much better. At the conclusion I certainly had profoundly asleep feet and a lot of discomfort as circulation resumed but the whole thing was less distracting.

One thing I'm going to have to do some work on is my tendency to develop internal snark over the people who use chairs or sit against the wall- some of them are long-timers maybe practicing longer and more consistently than I.
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Re: Dealing with Discomfort in Zazen

Post by Mkoll »

Not sure if you use a timer, but my longest sits have been without one. Just sitting and doing the practice without giving thought to the time. Removing that from the equation leaves just the bodily discomfort to stop the meditation.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: Dealing with Discomfort in Zazen

Post by Meido »

DGA wrote:I have found it useful to work closely with the body in the "offseason" between retreats. Specifically, strengthening the core muscles, stretching the lower back and soas muscles regularly, and using good body mechanics in everyday life helps prevent injury in seated meditation, while reducing pain and making it more manageable.
TheNonduality wrote:Zazen is such a body practice and getting your posture down is crucial. I noticed that having perfect posture can unlock a yogic energy that is essential for long sits and long retreats. I probably spent the first 2 years of sitting practice working on my posture and I'm so glad I did.
Just to add to these good points:

The manner of breathing cultivated in some lineages, once integrated, will reduce or eliminate discomfort including feet falling asleep, etc.

Regarding posture, my observation is that many folks in the west sit with excessive lordosis (curve in the low back). Reading Zen books can sometimes contribute to this problem, as many advise the practitioner to "push the hips forward." The word translated as "hips", though, is often koshi...which refers to the lower trunk, not solely the iliac crests. In other words: many Zen folks arch their backs and thrust out their chests thinking this is correct, but it is in fact exactly the opposite of what is traditionally advised, and completely prevents correct breathing.

Finally, I'd advise anyone experiencing excessive discomfort to look at diet.

~ Meido
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