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Karmic fruit - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Karmic fruit

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:14 pm

- Peter


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SeerObserver
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby SeerObserver » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:56 pm


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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:45 pm

Greetings SeerObserver,

I think you are classifying certain things as vipaka which should rightly be classified as kamma. Virtually every example you give in your last posts points to volitional action.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby SeerObserver » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:07 am


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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:56 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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kc2dpt
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby kc2dpt » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:37 pm

- Peter


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retrofuturist
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:35 pm

Greetings Peter,

In the first quote, I'm not specifically using a framework of "kammic causality"... just one of causality generally.

Image

A domino knocks over a domino knocks over a domino knocks over a domino....

And as venerable Nyanaponika said, "Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result of previous [kammic] action."

Tying this back to the topic at hand, room must be made for other non-kammic causes, otherwise we fall into the trap of kammic fatalism.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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kc2dpt
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:31 am

The question:

Do you think the karmic fruit can appear in the form of being in a position to accrue further bad karma?

Your answer:

Cause is effect is cause is effect - one moment conditions the next.

Your (new?) answer:

room must be made for other non-kammic causes, otherwise we fall into the trap of kammic fatalism.

The question was specifically about kamma and vipaka. It sounds like you're answer to the question is now 'no'? 'maybe'? 'sometimes'? It's not clear to me what your position is anymore.
- Peter


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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:51 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby SeerObserver » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:02 am

Retro,

Follow that same line and reconcile how someone of clear mind can be born in a war-ridden underdeveloped region dodging bullets to get to the grocery store while someone can be born into palace life and be a deluded individual and vice versa.

I'm interested to reconcile the OP by Drolma. How do certain people get into certain situations?

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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:24 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby pt1 » Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:02 am


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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:14 am

Greetings pt1,

The niyamas are only explicitly explained initially in the commentaries, quite possibly as a reaction to the Mahayana suggestion that kamma and dependent origination are indeed the cause of everything in the universe, which is elsewhere rebuked in the Points Of Controversy (venerable Dhammanando has provided reference to this somewhere before). The niyamas are a way of explaining what those non-kammic orders are... they are not an essential teaching in and of themselves, but are an effective means of rebuking incorrect interpretations of Buddhist causality, and show by example that kamma is not the cause of everything.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

pt1
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby pt1 » Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:38 am

Thanks retro. The kamma order - which conditions out of the 24 explained in the abhidhamma does it relate to, if any?

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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:50 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby appicchato » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:36 am


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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:01 pm

If what our Ven. says is not true, then there would be no point to creating positive conditions for future exposure to dharma.

Therefore I must conclude that it is true. Conditions may be a cause under the right circumstances.



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