Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

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Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby plwk » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:10 pm

A Malaysian airliner was shot down over eastern Ukraine by militants on Thursday, killing all 295 people aboard, a Ukrainian interior ministry official was quoted as saying by Interfax-Ukraine news agency. More here
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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby plwk » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:13 pm

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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby Dan74 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:18 pm

What a tragic senseless loss...
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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby Mkoll » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:26 pm

That is terrible news. Not only are many innocent people dead, but the Ukraine crisis has now escalated greatly and this may be the straw that breaks the camel's back. International powers will be forced to respond more forcefully now. And this is coming so soon after the harshest sanctions yet imposed by the U.S. on Russia.

And Malaysia has gotten very unlucky recently with MH370 and now this. What are the odds?
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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:03 pm

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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:15 pm

Very sad news. People here are shaken up as the port of departure was Amsterdam, Netherlands.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/eur ... ?hpt=hp_t1
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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:36 pm

It is not clear yet exactly who shot the plane down: Ukrainian defence forces, pro-Russian separatist militants, or Ukrainian paramilitaries. Or if it just plain crashed due to malfunction.
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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby Norwegian » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:28 am

Usually planes don't suddenly explode in mid air with debris falling down, so I think we can rule out the crash theory.

As for being shot down, that's the only legible solution. And that Ukraine would shoot down the plane makes no sense. However, we do know that pro-Russian separatists are in the area where the plane crashed, we do know that they have issued warnings before that they consider the airspace above where they are located as theirs, and we also do know that they have bragged about having BUK missiles in the past. These are just the kind of missiles you need to shoot down a commercial airliner, which has an altitude that is far beyond what "regular" missiles (which what most rebels and terrorists are in possession of) have.

This cached link shows the pro-Russian separatists in that area tweeting an image of the BUK missiles: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... 7629018112 -- and I say cached, because they have now deleted that image.

And earlier today, on Russian social network VKontakte (a sort of Russian Facebook), a leader of the pro-Russian separatists bragged about having shot down a Ukrainian military plane over the exact same town as the Malaysian airliner crashed down into. There has been no Ukrainian military plane crashing down there today, only the Malaysian airliner - ergo it was a misunderstanding of gigantic proportions. This post on VK have since been deleted...

And now US intel confirms that indeed a missile have been fired at the airliner: "A senior U.S. official said one radar system saw a surface-to-air missile system turn on and track an aircraft right before the plane went down. A second system saw a heat signature at the time the airliner was hit, the official said. The United States is analyzing the trajectory of the missile to try to learn where the attack came from."

The pro-Russian separatists are now intending on sending the discovered black box of the airliner to Moscow.

This is a tragedy that easily could've been avoided if people had made the right choices. And I really do wonder what Putin is thinking right now...
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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby Dan74 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:28 am

Norwegian wrote:Usually planes don't suddenly explode in mid air with debris falling down, so I think we can rule out the crash theory.

As for being shot down, that's the only legible solution. And that Ukraine would shoot down the plane makes no sense. However, we do know that pro-Russian separatists are in the area where the plane crashed, we do know that they have issued warnings before that they consider the airspace above where they are located as theirs, and we also do know that they have bragged about having BUK missiles in the past. These are just the kind of missiles you need to shoot down a commercial airliner, which has an altitude that is far beyond what "regular" missiles (which what most rebels and terrorists are in possession of) have.

This cached link shows the pro-Russian separatists in that area tweeting an image of the BUK missiles: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... 7629018112" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; -- and I say cached, because they have now deleted that image.

And earlier today, on Russian social network VKontakte (a sort of Russian Facebook), a leader of the pro-Russian separatists bragged about having shot down a Ukrainian military plane over the exact same town as the Malaysian airliner crashed down into. There has been no Ukrainian military plane crashing down there today, only the Malaysian airliner - ergo it was a misunderstanding of gigantic proportions. This post on VK have since been deleted...

And now US intel confirms that indeed a missile have been fired at the airliner: "A senior U.S. official said one radar system saw a surface-to-air missile system turn on and track an aircraft right before the plane went down. A second system saw a heat signature at the time the airliner was hit, the official said. The United States is analyzing the trajectory of the missile to try to learn where the attack came from."

The pro-Russian separatists are now intending on sending the discovered black box of the airliner to Moscow.

This is a tragedy that easily could've been avoided if people had made the right choices. And I really do wonder what Putin is thinking right now...


Your reconstruction of events is certainly a plausible one. If they have this technology, could they not see that it wasn't a military plane, but a civilian one??
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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby Mkoll » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:37 am

Dan74 wrote:
Norwegian wrote:Usually planes don't suddenly explode in mid air with debris falling down, so I think we can rule out the crash theory.

As for being shot down, that's the only legible solution. And that Ukraine would shoot down the plane makes no sense. However, we do know that pro-Russian separatists are in the area where the plane crashed, we do know that they have issued warnings before that they consider the airspace above where they are located as theirs, and we also do know that they have bragged about having BUK missiles in the past. These are just the kind of missiles you need to shoot down a commercial airliner, which has an altitude that is far beyond what "regular" missiles (which what most rebels and terrorists are in possession of) have.

This cached link shows the pro-Russian separatists in that area tweeting an image of the BUK missiles: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... 7629018112" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; -- and I say cached, because they have now deleted that image.

And earlier today, on Russian social network VKontakte (a sort of Russian Facebook), a leader of the pro-Russian separatists bragged about having shot down a Ukrainian military plane over the exact same town as the Malaysian airliner crashed down into. There has been no Ukrainian military plane crashing down there today, only the Malaysian airliner - ergo it was a misunderstanding of gigantic proportions. This post on VK have since been deleted...

And now US intel confirms that indeed a missile have been fired at the airliner: "A senior U.S. official said one radar system saw a surface-to-air missile system turn on and track an aircraft right before the plane went down. A second system saw a heat signature at the time the airliner was hit, the official said. The United States is analyzing the trajectory of the missile to try to learn where the attack came from."

The pro-Russian separatists are now intending on sending the discovered black box of the airliner to Moscow.

This is a tragedy that easily could've been avoided if people had made the right choices. And I really do wonder what Putin is thinking right now...


Your reconstruction of events is certainly a plausible one. If they have this technology, could they not see that it wasn't a military plane, but a civilian one??

I agree. Good post, Norwegian.

Your question is a good one, Dan. If we take for a moment that the plane was shot down by rebels, the only thing I can think of is that it was a gigantic mistake. It seems that this will only hasten the demise of their movement so I don't see much of a motive. One way or another, I think this event will lead to the world powers looking harder for a swifter end to this conflict than they were yesterday.
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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby Karma Dorje » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:54 am

Whoever shot it down, it was almost certainly a case of mistaken identity. Kiev moved Buk systems into East Ukraine to enforce a no-fly zone. It more likely is them or the Russians... these are *not* lock and load systems-- they are large and complex and require ground radar system operated by trained personnel for targeting. In the case of an accidental firing by the Kiev government forces, they and their American handlers would no doubt attempt to blame it on the freedom fighters in E. Ukraine.

It is of course possible that the separatists got ahold of a Buk TEL and figured out how to use it, but I would want to see actual evidence given the propaganda flying on both sides of this conflict. Why on earth would any commercial jet overfly a region of live conflict? Seems beyond stupid. This isn't the first time commercial flights have been shot down. The US downed an Iranian jet, Korean Air 007 was shot down by the Soviets, etc.

It's very sad for these people regardless of who shot it down. Let's focus on their wellbeing and not jump to conclusions.
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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby Norwegian » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:35 pm

In terms of flying over the Ukraine:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101845738
The International Air Transport Association said that it believed "the air space that the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions."

It is not unusual that a commercial airplane would be flying over an embattled country like Ukraine, said aviation consultant David Fuscus, president of Xenophon Strategies, because airlines often rely on being high enough to avoid most dangers.

"Would planes have been routed over Iraq and Iran during the Iraq/Iran war? The answer is no. But over Ukraine and Russia at this point? There was probably nothing that was done to avoid flying routes over the area," Fuscus said.
Fuscus added that planes almost never crash while at maximum altitude, so the crash immediately raises questions of foul play.

"And if a force had the technological capability to shoot down a plane, it would know exactly where to look. In low traffic areas, such as Ukraine, commercial flights almost always stick to major "highways in the sky," Fuscus said."


Today Ukrainian intel have published recordings of phone conversations with Russian military intelligence and pro-Russian rebels, with pro-Russian rebels admitting to shooting down the plane, and from the conversation it is clear that the shooting was a mistake:



http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/ ... NS20140717
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine ... 56545.html
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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby Yogicfire » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:56 pm

This is the second time that the Ukrainians have shot down a commercial flight in recent times. A Serbian Airlines plane was destroyed in 2001. The last time that a commercial flight was shot down.

On the BBC there is a tragic report about a couple who worked with Malaysian Airlines as cabin crew. The wife was originally supposed to be on the MH370 flight to Beijing but she changed shifts with a colleague at short notice. The husband changed shifts to be on the MH17 flight to Kuala Lumpur, and lost his life.
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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby WASW » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:18 pm

Sad, sad news. :( And scary too, given that it pushes military confrontation between Russia and NATO that one step closer.
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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:22 pm

Yup, well, Russia has a lot of answering to do...

Norwegian wrote:Usually planes don't suddenly explode in mid air with debris falling down, so I think we can rule out the crash theory.

As for being shot down, that's the only legible solution. And that Ukraine would shoot down the plane makes no sense. However, we do know that pro-Russian separatists are in the area where the plane crashed, we do know that they have issued warnings before that they consider the airspace above where they are located as theirs, and we also do know that they have bragged about having BUK missiles in the past. These are just the kind of missiles you need to shoot down a commercial airliner, which has an altitude that is far beyond what "regular" missiles (which what most rebels and terrorists are in possession of) have.

This cached link shows the pro-Russian separatists in that area tweeting an image of the BUK missiles: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... 7629018112" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; -- and I say cached, because they have now deleted that image.

And earlier today, on Russian social network VKontakte (a sort of Russian Facebook), a leader of the pro-Russian separatists bragged about having shot down a Ukrainian military plane over the exact same town as the Malaysian airliner crashed down into. There has been no Ukrainian military plane crashing down there today, only the Malaysian airliner - ergo it was a misunderstanding of gigantic proportions. This post on VK have since been deleted...

And now US intel confirms that indeed a missile have been fired at the airliner: "A senior U.S. official said one radar system saw a surface-to-air missile system turn on and track an aircraft right before the plane went down. A second system saw a heat signature at the time the airliner was hit, the official said. The United States is analyzing the trajectory of the missile to try to learn where the attack came from."

The pro-Russian separatists are now intending on sending the discovered black box of the airliner to Moscow.

This is a tragedy that easily could've been avoided if people had made the right choices. And I really do wonder what Putin is thinking right now...
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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby JKhedrup » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:34 am

An added element of tragedy. Up to 100 the passengers were leading HIV/AIDS researchers:

http://preventdisease.com/news/14/07181 ... AIDS.shtml


Up To 100 Passengers on Board Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 Were Top Experts In HIV/AIDS

As many as 100 passengers on board Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 were bound for the 20th International AIDS Conference in Melbourne, it emerged today. The disaster, which left 298 people dead, claimed the lives of some of the world's leading experts in the battle against HIV and devastated their families, friends and colleagues. According to the Sydney Morning Herald, delegates arriving in Australia for the AIDS conference were told that 108 of their colleagues had perished.
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Re: Ukraine says Malaysian Airliner shot down, 295 dead

Postby WASW » Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:48 am

Absolutely gutting given the spate of articles recently indicating real progress on HIV/AIDS research. This could set research back years from the loss of expertise and derailed projects.
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