Middle Way Politics

Alleviating worldly suffering along the way.

Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Malcolm » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:26 am

kirtu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:There is no Buddhist "political theory".


There is: Nagarjuna's Precious Garland.

Kirt



I wouldn't go so far as to say that is a systematic political theory, Kirt. It is a Niti śastra, advice on governance, not a well constructed political theory like Kautilya's Arthaśastra, i.e. Treatise on Ends.

I would say that it is what it is, advice to a King, with come policy recommendations. However, I do agree that it contains the essentials for forming the basis of someone's political conscience.
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Rickpa » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:44 pm

This thread strikes me as about being more about systems of governance rather than politics. Politics as experienced in democratic nations is a form of conflict, which is waged as "campaigns." Yeah, war. It would be interesting, and refreshing to see a middle way campaign, and middle way politics.

I would think to qualify as "Middle Way," there would have to be certain criteria:

a) Respect and kindness towards those most antagonistic to your position.

b) Patience.

c) Equanimity towards unfair attacks and characterizations of one's person and positions.

d) Not favoring supporters, or disfavor towards opponents in setting policies.

e) Openness to benefits for all, regardless of what faction originates a policy idea.

f) Honest positions in the campaign that are based in reality, leading to transparent government with easily understood law and regulation.

What would HHDL do? That's Middle Way politics.
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Simon E. » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:49 pm

Sorry Rick, but all the evidence is that HHDL would make a colossal fudge fraught with unintended consequences.
I am not sure that's a model likely to commend itself widely.
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby muni » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:41 pm

Based on own mind.
Expecting it from others isn't that ignorance? And then my prefered group followed by egocentric pulling and pushing fights. I saw some words two days ago: "democracy cannot help since welfare for all cannot be as long as we think others are different from us". There is Wisdom in these, not?
Last edited by muni on Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Malcolm » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:41 pm

Rickpa wrote:This thread strikes me as about being more about systems of governance rather than politics.


That is where people went with the thread. What I had in mind was more how, given that there are many non-Buddhist political realities out there, Buddhists will conduct themselves in the political sphere. For example, our friend Greg (Sherab Dorje) considers it just dandy to destroy private property.

M
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Simon E. » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:01 pm

muni wrote:Based on own mind.
Expecting it from others isn't that ignorance? And then my prefered group followed by egocentric pulling and pushing fights. I saw some words two days ago: "democracy cannot help since welfare for all cannot be as long as we think others are different from us". There is Wisdom in these, not?

You mean you are not different from me ? Or me from you ? Or are we both part of a Giant Glowing Pudding ?
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby muni » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:17 pm

Simon E. wrote:
muni wrote:Based on own mind.
Expecting it from others isn't that ignorance? And then my prefered group followed by egocentric pulling and pushing fights. I saw some words two days ago: "democracy cannot help since welfare for all cannot be as long as we think others are different from us". There is Wisdom in these, not?

You mean you are not different from me ? Or me from you ? Or are we both part of a Giant Glowing Pudding ?


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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:... For example, our friend Greg (Sherab Dorje) considers it just dandy to destroy private property.
And our friend Malcolm has no problem with a multinational mining company wreaking havoc just because they own a title deed for the land they are destroying? :shrug:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Simon E. » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:20 pm

Multinational mining companies are not trying to practice Dharma.
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Malcolm » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:40 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:... For example, our friend Greg (Sherab Dorje) considers it just dandy to destroy private property.
And our friend Malcolm has no problem with a multinational mining company wreaking havoc just because they own a title deed for the land they are destroying? :shrug:


I didn't say that I have no problem with it. I do, I just don't believe that the solution is fire bombing their facilities and equipment.

In any event, most mining companies in the US lease the land they are mining. Not sure how it works in other places.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Simon E. » Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:04 pm

muni wrote:
Simon E. wrote:
muni wrote:Based on own mind.
Expecting it from others isn't that ignorance? And then my prefered group followed by egocentric pulling and pushing fights. I saw some words two days ago: "democracy cannot help since welfare for all cannot be as long as we think others are different from us". There is Wisdom in these, not?

You mean you are not different from me ? Or me from you ? Or are we both part of a Giant Glowing Pudding ?


By mindfulness.

' By mindfulness ' what ?
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:08 pm

Simon E. wrote:Multinational mining companies are not trying to practice Dharma.
You can say that again!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:... For example, our friend Greg (Sherab Dorje) considers it just dandy to destroy private property.
And our friend Malcolm has no problem with a multinational mining company wreaking havoc just because they own a title deed for the land they are destroying? :shrug:


I didn't say that I have no problem with it. I do, I just don't believe that the solution is fire bombing their facilities and equipment.
And I never said that I support all instances of property destruction. ;)
In any event, most mining companies in the US lease the land they are mining. Not sure how it works in other places.
In Greece they buy the land. Normally from the state since most reserves are on public land (read forests).
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Malcolm » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:41 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:And I never said that I support all instances of property destruction. ;)


You advocate violence in so far as you think some types of property destruction are permissible based on some arbitrary standard you impose.

But frankly, I cannot see any place in Buddhist ethics where it is permissible.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Simon E. » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:16 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Multinational mining companies are not trying to practice Dharma.
You can say that again!


Multinational mining companies are not trying to practice Dharma.
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby anjali » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:53 am

I was unaware of the Journal of Buddhist Ethics, published yearly since 1994 (this is the 20th year of publication). Journal articles can be read online here.
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:42 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:And I never said that I support all instances of property destruction. ;)


You advocate violence in so far as you think some types of property destruction are permissible based on some arbitrary standard you impose.

But frankly, I cannot see any place in Buddhist ethics where it is permissible.
Really? I don't think you have to look all that hard actually. I don't think it would be so difficult, from a Buddhist perspective, to ethically justify destroying a machine in order to save countless lives. Not difficult at all actually.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Malcolm » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:47 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:And I never said that I support all instances of property destruction. ;)


You advocate violence in so far as you think some types of property destruction are permissible based on some arbitrary standard you impose.

But frankly, I cannot see any place in Buddhist ethics where it is permissible.
Really? I don't think you have to look all that hard actually. I don't think it would be so difficult, from a Buddhist perspective, to ethically justify destroying a machine in order to save countless lives. Not difficult at all actually.


I see, so you are going to get out there and destroy shovels, hoes, rakes, lawn mowers, plows, cars etc? No, there really is no justification for such acts. Such acts are merely symbolic and do nothing to change systems, as the failed efforts of the Luddites clearly demonstrates. Violence, whether against people or property, is not justifiable from a Buddhist ethical standpoint unless you are a realized person in possession of such powers of prescience and clairvoyance that you can be assured of a positive outcome of your acts.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby tellyontellyon » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:51 pm

Capitalism destroys great amouts of machinery, and peoples lives.

Every time there is a crisis... and they come fairly regularly, then demand drops. The overcapacity creates a problem for capitalism. Despite the continuing human need, the need for profit overides all. Factories are closed and destroyed, services are shredded. Peoples lives are destroyed when they are thrown on the scrapheap. Homelessness goes up, while empty houses are left boarded up. If things get really bad, they can start a war: plenty of money for the arms dealers.

Totally irrational and unnecessary from the point of view of humanity, but it all makes perfect sense to those whose hearts and minds have been replaced by calculators.
“Don't you know that a midnight hour comes when everyone has to take off his mask? Do you think life always lets itself be trifled with? Do you think you can sneak off a little before midnight to escape this?”
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Re: Middle Way Politics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:I see, so you are going to get out there and destroy shovels, hoes, rakes, lawn mowers, plows, cars etc? No, there really is no justification for such acts. Such acts are merely symbolic and do nothing to change systems, as the failed efforts of the Luddites clearly demonstrates. Violence, whether against people or property, is not justifiable from a Buddhist ethical standpoint unless you are a realized person in possession of such powers of prescience and clairvoyance that you can be assured of a positive outcome of your acts.
So if you have a guy with a gun who wants to kill people and you destroy the gun it is totally against Buddhist ethics? No it's not. Just because monkey wrenching doesn't fit into your personal world view doesn't mean it cannot be accommodated within the framework of Buddhist ethics. Unless you believe that your world view is the only truly Buddhist world view. Somehow I don't think you are that egotistical.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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