YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada - Dhamma Wheel

Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 10648
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:37 am

In another thread there is a discussion about the translation of a Pali passage in a signature line. This led me to take another look at the great link in tilt's signature line:

http://web.archive.org/web/200502151352 ... ysp962.htm

It appears to be a very old web page, but still great!

I love the section on, "ETHNOSANGHA OVERSIGHT" which is defined as:

ETHNOSANGHA OVERSIGHT: The exclusion of ethnic Buddhist groups (nonwhites in this case) when referring to Western Buddhism.

There are so many groups and teachers that sometimes refer to modern-day Buddhism as "Western Buddhism" or "Western Zen" or perhaps "Western Theravada."

I am sure no harm was meant or intended, but it does seem to suggest an "ethnosangha oversight." That is why I think the term, "Modern Theravada" is much better. It does not refer to any cultural or ethnic group and in fact many Asians also espouse the same views of what might be called Modern Theravada.
Image




User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:46 am

Greetings David,

Yes, I think Modern Theravada is a much better term than Western Theravada, although I'm comfortable with the concept of a Western Buddhism as a form of Buddhism that may evolve over time as one that forms against the backdrop of (predominantly Abrahamic) Western society.

However, the things that appeal to Westerners about Buddhism (e.g. the clear demonstration of cause and effect, the invitation to come and see, the lack of blind faith) are precisely the things that are appealing to the younger generations in Asia. No one anywhere is immune to scientific revolution, and the masses will no longer be prepared to follow a religious tradition simply because their parents and grandparents did.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 10648
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:01 am

Image




User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 10648
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:00 am

I just found an article in a newspaper (online) that discusses some of the issues here, with Buddhism in modern times:

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/ ... 10388/1008

There is also a link to a video at that site.
Image




User avatar
sherubtse
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:10 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby sherubtse » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:43 pm


User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:57 pm

Western Theravada for me at least implies the monastic and lay interaction in the west, and how it is or has developed so far.
Modern Theravada for me implies the developments in ideas which may not balance 100% with the more traditional ideas before full contact with the west happened.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 10648
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:13 pm

Image




User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:20 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:53 pm

i came to theravada from zen under a monk that was meditation 1st, study 2nd and ceremony only if you have to
then i came to thai theravada
at first i was into the thai stuff but after awhile it has started to seem like all thai buddhism is is ceremony, meditation here and there (if at all)and not really any study at all. the only major exceptions to this rule seem to be western monks. i spent years planning and getting things in order to ordain but last year that all changed, and now as a lay person who will probably always be a lay person, i'm struggling. i know i dont want my role as a buddhist to simply be a food delivery boy but in traditional thai buddhism that seems to be all thats offered to me.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

Hoo
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:24 am
Location: Missouri, USA

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby Hoo » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:27 pm


User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:06 am

most famous western monks come from lp chah. as far as i can tell and as far as i'm concerned he, and they, are all pretty stand up guys and great monks.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

User avatar
appicchato
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby appicchato » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:57 am


User avatar
Ordinaryperson
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:09 pm
Location: West

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby Ordinaryperson » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:44 am


Actively trying to destroy the Three Unwholesome Roots of Greed, Hatred and Ignorance
Greed is the greatest danger of them all

User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1720
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby gavesako » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:30 am

Here is a relavant blog entry from a Western monk who finally gave up trying to fit into a Wat Thai due to the ethnic and power issues involved:

Apology of Yuttadhammes

Jun 23rd, 2009 by yuttadhammo

I am not staying at a Wat Thai this rains retreat. ANY Wat Thai. And I’m not going to apologize for that. I’d like to take a little time to explain why I’ve come to this decision, as most people are unable to understand why I would come to such a strange decision. Strange to them, of course, for it seems perfectly reasonable to me, having been ordained as a Thai monk and lived with Thai monks for the past 7 years.

First, the misunderstanding stems mainly from a misunderstanding of what a monk should be. I admit, I am not a perfect model of what a monk should be, but I think I keep at least a modest level of monastic discipline, including a healthy respect and adherence to the rules of the monastic life and a healthy distancing of oneself from societies of all sorts.

Secondly, I think we generally don’t take enough time to appreciate what is meant by “Wat Thai” or “Wat Khmer” or “Wat Laos”, etc. I think if we did, we would realize it is really a funny thing, considering the Buddha was of Nepalese decent. No, what these places really are is a place for displaced immigrants to return, even briefly, to the society from which they were displaced. (...)

http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/post ... tadhammes/
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
- Translations and history of Pali texts
- Sutta translations

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby Ben » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:47 am

Thank you Bhante.

The terms 'Western Theravada', and 'Western Buddhism' are just curious novelties to me. My focus is very much bhavana (meditation), sila, dana and pariyatti. The tradition in which I have continued to practice within is very light on the ceremony and has very little of the cultural acretions normally associated with Buddhism.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
appicchato
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby appicchato » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:53 am

Sometimes I feel like an apple in a bowl of oranges...but after thirty some years in Thailand I think that's always going to be the case (for a Caucasian in Asia)...in a wat or otherwise...and also find it a little strange to contemplate being a monk in the West (where the level of practice (I've read) seems comparable to, or (in instances) surpassing that of the East (if indeed they can be compared))...for me personally I find the level of support, and deference (among other things) here to be of real benefit, as well as incentive (in the attempt to maintain a high level of monastic discipline) on the path to liberation...just musing here folks... :popcorn:

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby Ben » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:07 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 10648
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:50 pm

Image




User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:36 pm


User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 10648
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Modern Theravada, not Western Theravada

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:17 pm

Image





Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 40 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine