Buddhist Anarchism

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby AilurusFulgens » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
AilurusFulgens wrote:
I don't want to sidetrack the thread, but may I ask what makes the Khon royal family the oldest surviving in the world?

Why Khon and not for instance the Japanese imperial family or some other royal lineage?




Well, second oldest then. Though arguably, since the Khon family were the direct descendants of a god of the clear light realm who was elevated to kingship by the clans of Tibet, but this is not historical.

The ascension of the Khon to rulership of Tibet occurred in the thirteenth century. Apart from the Japanese royal family, I personally know of no other family with such a long continuous rule in one place.

M


Thank you for the clarification. Where is it possible to find more information on the Khon royal family? Especially them being descendant of a god of the clear light realm?

Can you also go a bit in detail concerning this?

I have always been fascinated by the stories how the very first Tibetan king did not die, but ascended back to heaven on a heavenly rope (dmu-theg).
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby ground » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:14 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
ground wrote:
Anarchism and religious tradition are contradictory. "Buddhist anarchism" is a contradiction in terms.

Why?


Sönam wrote:It depends on how you define anarchism and on the religious tradition we are speaking about ...


Yes of course. And I have to admit that I have overlooked that the thread "Buddhist Anarchism" comes under "Engaged Buddhism". So in the minds of buddhists there may be a "buddhist anarchism" as in the minds of christians there may be a "christian anarchism".

However if one follows secular anarchist thinkers - i.e. the ones that actually are the source of the idea of anarchism - then anarchism is antagonistic to any kind of religion because religion cultivates acceptance of authority and power in the first place.
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby ground » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:Personally, I have been a religious monarchist since ...

We would fight against each other in a revolutionary civil war ...
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby Malcolm » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:37 pm

ground wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Personally, I have been a religious monarchist since ...

We would fight against each other in a revolutionary civil war ...


What I mean is that my first guru HHST, is a dharmarāja. As is Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, for that matter.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby Malcolm » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:47 pm

AilurusFulgens wrote:
Thank you for the clarification. Where is it possible to find more information on the Khon royal family? Especially them being descendant of a god of the clear light realm?

Can you also go a bit in detail concerning this?

I have always been fascinated by the stories how the very first Tibetan king did not die, but ascended back to heaven on a heavenly rope (dmu-theg).



This is an extract from a history of Sakya that I wrote for Lama Migmar Tseten which appears in Treasures of the Sakya Lineage published by Shambhala.

The Khon trace their origin to a class of gods called Wosel Lha, gods of luminous clarity.
The Annals of the Khon Lineage (gdung rabs), cites the fifteenth century author, Ngorchen Kunchog Lhundrup:
    The line of emanations of Mañjuśṛī,
    The Glorious Sakyapa, begins in the country of the Gods of Luminous Clarity.
    There were three brothers, Chiring, Yuring, and Yuse.
    Yuse, having been made a king of humans, bore four sons.
    His elder brother, Yuring, came to his aid.
    The sons of Yuring and Muza Dembu
    were the group of the seven Maza. The six oldest brothers
    with their father returned to the land of the gods.
    The youngest son, Masang Chije
    and Thogcham Wurmo bore a son, Pawo Tag.
    Both he and his Naga wife, Trama, bore a son
    called Lutsa Tagpo Woechan.
    Lutsa and the Mon lady Tsomo Gyal
    while living together bore a son
    at the divide between slate and grass,
    and so he was named Yapang Kyes,
    a hero that could not be defeated by others.
In a definitive sense Mañjuśṛī is held to have emanated as three gods of luminous clarity, the gods named Chiring, Yuring and Yuse or Use in order to benefit others. It is of great importance too that these gods are considered emanations of Mañjuśṛī, since all males of the Khon line are considered to be descendents as well as emanations of the Bodhisattva Mañjuśṛī.
These three brothers descended to the human realm where they were asked to become the ruler of human beings.
The youngest brother of the gods, Yuse, was elevated to the position of the ruler. He himself bore four sons, known as the four Se Chi Li brothers. Together they fought with the eighteen major tribes of the Dong , one of the four original clans of Tibet. The middle brother, Yuring, came to aid them, and after the Dong clan was subjugated, The Dong were made vassals.
Yuring himself married a daughter of the Mu, Muza Dembu, and they bore the seven Masang brothers. Of those seven, the eldest six returned to the country of the Gods with their father.
The youngest of the Masang brothers, Masang Chije, remained among human beings. He married Thogcham Wurmo, the daughter of the Thoglha Woedchan, they bore a son known as Thogtsad Bangpo Tag.
Thogtsad married Lucham Drama, the daughter of a Nāgā , to whom a son named Lutsa Tagpo Woechan was born.
Lutsa and a Mon lady, Tsomo Gyal were married and their single son was born on the treeline, thus he was given that name Yahpang Kyes i.e. “Born at the divide between slate and grass” i.e. on the tree line of a mountain. The significance of this is that according to the Tibetan conception of cosmology, the gods live in the heights of the mountains above the tree line, while human beings live below the treeline.
The Khon in the Tibetan Imperial Period:
Konchog Lhundrup continues his account:
    Then having slain the Srinpo named Kyareng Khragmey and
    having stolen the wife, Yahdrum Silima
    he married her.
    They had a son named Khonpar Kye.
    The son of he [Khonpar Kye] and a Lady of the Tsan, Chambu Dron
    was handsome and smart, rare in the human lands,
    named Khonpa Jegung Tag,
    he was known as Khonton Palpoche, who went to Nyantse.
Yahpang was engaged in a fight with a Srinpo named Kyareng Khragmed, and having slain this Srinpo, married his wife. Because their boy was born as the outcome of a feud between the gods [lha] and demons [srin po], the boy was named “Born in a Feud”, “Khon par kyes”, and this is given as the origin of the clan name of the Khon.
Khonpar Kye, the offspring of gods, humans and demons, married a lady of a type of a lesser Tibetan god, the Tsan, called Chambu Dron, and their son was known as Khonton Palpoche, i.e. the Khon Teacher who Increases Wealth. He gained his name because after being appointed one of the inner ministers of King Trisrong Detsan’s court, he increased the King’s wealth.
Khonton Palpoche married Lang Zang Nechung , the sister of a translator named Lang Khampa, and while there are slightly varying accounts as to whether there were two or four sons, most later scholars follow the tradition that there were two sons, the elder being the great scholar, the Khon Lotsawa, Lu’i Wangpo, and the younger son, Khon Dorje Rinchen. Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen notes in his Annals of the Khon Lineage [‘khon gyi gdung rabs]:
“Khon Lu’i Wangpo Srungs was the foremost of the seven tested men. His younger brother Khon Dorje Rinchen became a disciple of Master Padmasambhava and became a tantrika.”
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: HHDL on capitalism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
I am, in principle, in favor of “globalization” and the concept of “global” companies. In the past, communities and countries could live in isolation if they wanted to; that is no longer the case. Today, a stock-market crash on one side of the globe has a direct and immediate effect on the other side. Terrorism born in one country can destabilize a dozen others. And the effects of poverty, disease, and social unrest in a handful of nations impact the rest of the world. It is my opinion that global companies can be agents for positive change in our interconnected world.
...
HHDL say many more things, and his position is more nuanced than the citations I have posted might lead one to believe. But it quite clear he has abandoned his "Marxism" in favor of a free market style political economy.
And who says that I, for example, care what HHDL's political view may be? His Dharma teachings? Yes! His politics? Well...
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: HHDL on capitalism

Postby Malcolm » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:19 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:And who says that I, for example, care what HHDL's political view may be? His Dharma teachings? Yes! His politics? Well...



You don't, but TOTO does, since he was using some of HHDL's political views stated in other places prior to 2009, when this book was published.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby tellyontellyon » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:10 am

The point isn't whether HHDL is a Marxist or not, although he was certainly still calling himself a Marxist in 2011.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/jun/20/dalai-lama-marxist-buddhism

The point is that it is possible to be a Marxist and be a Buddhist. Whether HHDL still is or not is not the point, the point is that he was for most of his life and therefore being able to hold both Buddhist and Marxist ideas is not ruled out. HHDL seems able to make his own mind about these things without resorting to telling people they are 'un-dharmic' or 'worldly' for thinking this way or that.

I say it is possible to be a Buddhist and a capitalist also...However, I do object to the idea that being a capitalist is somehow the default position for Buddhists.

To be honest I don't see Buddhism as a 'recieved' religion and it is all-always up for discussion. I don't accept anything on faith or believe something just because HHDL or the Buddha himself says so. I'll make my own mind up about what is right and wrong based on my experience and what makes sense.

I don't rule out ever changing my mind, but as things stand, if I met the Buddha on the road and he was supporting a pro-capitalist or pro-monarchist stance, I would tell him that I thought he was wrong.

Does that make me a bit of a Judas? :tongue:

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:46 am

tellyontellyon wrote:The point isn't whether HHDL is a Marxist or not, although he was certainly still calling himself a Marxist in 2011.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/jun/20/dalai-lama-marxist-buddhism


His putative "Marxism" seems confined to the idea that he wants the best for everyone.

The point is that it is possible to be a Marxist and be a Buddhist. Whether HHDL still is or not is not the point, the point is that he was for most of his life and therefore being able to hold both Buddhist and Marxist ideas is not ruled out. HHDL seems able to make his own mind about these things without resorting to telling people they are 'un-dharmic' or 'worldly' for thinking this way or that.


He thinks that Mao was against Dharma.

I say it is possible to be a Buddhist and a capitalist also...However, I do object to the idea that being a capitalist is somehow the default position for Buddhists.


Actually, no one said that. What was said was that one will never be rid of markets, capital accumulation, and so on. And as we see, HHDL is not against markets nor capital accumulation.

To be honest I don't see Buddhism as a 'recieved' religion and it is all-always up for discussion.


Well, there you are wrong. Thinks like dependent origination, rebirth, emptiness and so are non-negotiable.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby tellyontellyon » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:58 am

Well, there you are wrong.


You think I'm wrong to say it should be discussed and understood and tested against experience?
I don't think so...
I think that is exactly what Buddha wanted us to do, not simply act like a 'faith' religion.
That which is true will eventually shine through.

:namaste:

BTW, not only was Mao against Dharma, he was against Marxism too.
“Don't you know that a midnight hour comes when everyone has to take off his mask? Do you think life always lets itself be trifled with? Do you think you can sneak off a little before midnight to escape this?”
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:06 am

tellyontellyon wrote:You think I'm wrong to say it should be discussed and understood and tested against experience?
I don't think so...
I think that is exactly what Buddha wanted us to do, not simply act like a 'faith' religion.
That which is true will eventually shine through.


What the Buddha said actually was, until you know for yourself, you need to take it on faith from someone who does.

The Kalamas sutta for example is much misunderstood in that it was taught to non-Buddhists.

But the Eastern Gatehouse Sutta explains very clearly that until you have that taste of nirvana, which is of course based on understand dependent origination, the four noble truths and so on, you must accept the Dharma as it is taught from someone who does know. Hence the crucial importance of having a master of genuine realization.

Further, faith, in Dharma, is defined as a mental factor that brings clarity to the mind. Of course we don't want blind faith, but aspiring faith is also weak, since if your role model disappoints you, you might abandon Dharma after all. What we are looking for in Buddhadharma is unshakable faith such that if 1000 buddhas showed up and said "Sorry, it was all a mistake" you would not believe them.

Faith is one of the five faculties and one of the five powers. It is the very foundation of the path to nirvana, which is why it is considered one of the 8 transcendent faculties.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:06 am

tellyontellyon wrote:
BTW, not only was Mao against Dharma, he was against Marxism too.


Yeah, right. I don't think so son. I have been to the very birthplace of the Chinese revolution in Shanghai.
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby tellyontellyon » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:13 am

I have been to the very birthplace of the Chinese revolution in Shanghai.


And I've been to Tibet... so what.
That doesn't make my opinions more or less valid just because of that.

The Chinese Maoists were a twisted, distorted caricature of Marxism that I'm sure you know by now that I don't support.
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:20 am

tellyontellyon wrote:
The Chinese Maoists were a twisted, distorted caricature of Marxism that I'm sure you know by now that I don't support.


And I think that Stalin and Mao are the very picture of how Marxism is bound to turn out in the end, as you surely know by now. And frankly, we have more evidence on our side than you do on yours, which is why most people in the US think the modern day Marxist socialists are nutjobs.
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby tellyontellyon » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:33 am

Many Marxists would disagree. There is much evidence against Stalinism and Maoism, but to say a genuine workers democracy would inevitably degenerate into a bureaucracy, that is a quite different question.

Though the argument is taken up here:
http://www.marxist.net/trotsky/russia/r2frame.htm?stalin.html

Real American Marxists are still around:
http://www.socialistalternative.org/
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:44 am

tellyontellyon wrote:Many Marxists would disagree. There is much evidence against Stalinism and Maoism, but to say a genuine workers democracy would inevitably degenerate into a bureaucracy, that is a quite different question.


Of course they will disagree. No one wants to be associated with Stalin and Mao.

But I definitely think the US is safe from being turned into a "workers democracy". In any event, the whole piece you cited keeps waffling on and on about "elimination of the state" and that, my friend, will never happen unless all civilization falls into utter barbarism and anarchy.

This is why I think you Marxists and Anarchists are just dreamers. Your stateless society will never happen.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby Sönam » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:52 am

ground wrote:
... because religion cultivates acceptance of authority and power in the first place.


I like this allegation ...

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby Kim O'Hara » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:58 am

Sönam wrote:
ground wrote:
... because religion cultivates acceptance of authority and power in the first place.


I like this allegation ...

Sönam

It's actually pretty accurate if you take "religion" to mean "monotheistic religion". Not so accurate in relation to others ...

:thinking:
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby Sönam » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:37 am

Malcolm wrote:
tellyontellyon wrote:
The Chinese Maoists were a twisted, distorted caricature of Marxism that I'm sure you know by now that I don't support.


And I think that Stalin and Mao are the very picture of how Marxism is bound to turn out in the end, as you surely know by now. And frankly, we have more evidence on our side than you do on yours, which is why most people in the US think the modern day Marxist socialists are nutjobs.


Also capitalism contains in itself the seeds of disease, being based on competition and so on. It is not the problem in itself,the problem being a fair redistribution of profit. The profit in a production unit is half created by investment, half by workers that produce ... that would be fair. But the power of money transformes the world into a battlefield the way it keeps the production means as low cost and power as possible. Workers are not co-producers, they are slaves of capitalists (those who possess capital, often because dad did posses it). There is a class war, but it is lead by capitalists, because it serves their own greedy interests.
The way you describe the capitalist world is a pure utopia, it does not work and never will, because capitalism is based on greed ... always more profit with always less effort, driven by competition (becoming a necessity).

Anyway communism, capitalism are no solutions as they are today ... if we bet on capitalism, it should follow such rules (to stay fair) and would need so many control organizations (for the rules to be respected) that it would look like the worst communist organization.

But I also have the feeling that this discussion turns sometime like a competition ...

S
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Postby AlexanderS » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:54 am

I don't think anyone here are fans of capitalism. It's simply that in the real world and especially in this day and age it works better than it's ideological rivals(such as marxism). Personally I'm not very political. I think some political systems are more suitable for some countries and cultures and not so much others. For example even though I'm not a fan of monarchy it seems to suit Bhutan. I like our social democratic states here in scandinavia with a good balance of open markets and a welfare state, but I acknowledge that it might not work so well in bigger countries like the US. However think I think ideas such as marxism or pure libetarian anarchy are infantile fantasies that are impossible to implement succesfully in reality.
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