Autism

Alleviating worldly suffering along the way.

Re: Autism

Postby undefineable » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:26 pm

treefairy wrote:Yes. Ive kinda cross-referenced those states of consciousness with the Zen idea of makyo to get a possibly useful working map of the subconscious and the problems people have. Its a surprisingly accurate model that may have some biochemical correlates with serotonin functioning.


This is all speculation, and 'Makyo' has always been something Ive tried to steer clear of. Autism, though, is incurable as it's the result of the brain developing in a less-broadly-connected way as a structure, *not* in terms of neurotransmitter function. Can I ask what your interest in autism is?

Anyhow, the questions I raised in my last post seem to be answering themselves in a way helpful to the topic of autism in relation to Buddhism - In particular, autistics (and possibly psychopaths!) need to develop that much less 'inner steel' before committing to a course of action that harms others, because they bear in mind the suffering of others that much less. {On the other hand, autistics are aware that they lack the tools to get away with such actions in the way psychopaths tend to, so they typically develop that much more 'morality' on a subconscious level :twisted: } As for the 'solipsism' thang, maybe non-autistics are that much more 'connected' at some deeper level. {Autistics might be too, but might remain unaware of it :thinking: }
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: Autism

Postby treefairy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:20 pm

"This is all speculation, and 'Makyo' has always been something Ive tried to steer clear of."

Oh, I do as well, but leave it to me to contemplate these things... or notice these mental states with other people ive studied. (Yikes!)

"Autism, though, is incurable as it's the result of the brain developing in a less-broadly-connected way as a structure, *not* in terms of neurotransmitter function. Can I ask what your interest in autism is?"

Neurochemist attempting to develop treatments out of the highest compassion.. not to force treatment on those who dont want it, but to help those who bang their head on the desk and attack people in fits they dont mean to have. Also, it is of note that science now kind of considers ADD and autism related, and somewhat treatable by use of dopaminergenics like Strattera and Adderall. The kicker is that there are more interesting things in that whole category of chemicals that might serve even better. Empathogens, for example, which are now currently being investigated for this and PTSD at this point.

Also, i want to see better, genetic level diagnosis done. There are other conditions that can make a kid totally out of place socially, including his environment. You also might want to check into what the parents are feeding the kid, both literally and mentally. And then theres the fact that a self-awakened person would be weird in comparison to society. Especially THIS one. There was a man earlier in this thread like that, who reported a profound oneness with the universe before his parents and society labeled him. I hope that the Dharma helps him and others find out what they really are...

"Anyhow, the questions I raised in my last post seem to be answering themselves in a way helpful to the topic of autism in relation to Buddhism - In particular, autistics (and possibly psychopaths!) need to develop that much less 'inner steel' before committing to a course of action that harms others, because they bear in mind the suffering of others that much less."

That bothers me a lot. I knew one who was brainwashed hardline conservative by his redneck parents to the point where he was FOR nuclear weapons. Most sickening discompassionate individual i knew. I got the sense that he was just plain out and out disconnected from the field, or would like to pretend he is... like the ultimate expression of egoism. This might also indicate something wrong in the whole social psych arena as well.. our society is like this. blargh.

"{On the other hand, autistics are aware that they lack the tools to get away with such actions in the way psychopaths tend to, so they typically develop that much more 'morality' on a subconscious level } As for the 'solipsism' thang, maybe non-autistics are that much more 'connected' at some deeper level. {Autistics might be too, but might remain unaware of it }
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Re: Autism

Postby undefineable » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:40 am

treefairy wrote:"This is all speculation, and 'Makyo' has always been something Ive tried to steer clear of."

Oh, I do as well, but leave it to me to contemplate these things... or notice these mental states with other people ive studied. (Yikes!)

I think few of us would be on Dharmawheel if we had neither the interest nor the stomach to contemplate the likes of makyo.

While growing up, I drifted and otherwise steered away from a makyo of sorts that's best described as shamanic rather than autistic. {I've read and heard a lot of first-hand accounts of autism, but mine seems unique in involving mental states that can't be categorised as thoughts, emotions, or sensations; I'd imagine this has more to do with the schizophrenia on my mother's side than the extreme introversion on my father's.} Your sipa bardo analogy seems to fit better with the autism I've heard of and observed.

Either way, your 'yikes' made me laugh, but as I was saying on the Split-brain thread, altered states of consciousness are typically the proverbial pussy-cats (i.e. nothing to be scared of) whether you're an observer or a subject. This is true as long as either you've never known any different or you've deliberately accustomed yourself to them for whatever reason, particularly if you've apply the (dharma) teachings that say it's better to deal with the situation as it stands rather than messing around with its immediate causes. I wish you and your clients' patients the best of luck, of course, but I wonder how the simpler autistic cousins of the most complex known structure (the normal human brain) can be 'upgraded' to match it with the aid of chemical fluids alone :thinking:
treefairy wrote:Neurochemist attempting to develop treatments out of the highest compassion.. not to force treatment on those who dont want it, but to help those who bang their head on the desk and attack people in fits they dont mean to have.

Yes - It's important that high-functioning autistics continue to do the jobs and make the innovations that others find too dull and technical to spend sufficient time on. Those autistics (like me) who are high-functioning but not technically minded must bear a heavy burden of responsibility.
treefairy wrote:And then theres the fact that a self-awakened person would be weird in comparison to society.

The opposite could equally be argued -that the enlightened are in fact super-normal- since they have removed the causes of any sense of individuated 'Self' separate from the world. When applied to persons, the label 'wierd' is typically associated with autism and schizophrenia, not with people who seem comfortable with themselves and their surroundings. Let's not forget that the word 'wierd' originally meant 'Destiny' (as in 'The Wyrd'), with all that word's implications of past karma / vipaka. Any path out of samsara, on the other hand, subverts -by definition- a being's 'destiny' to circle endlessly in it, paradoxically because the centrifugal force is removed by an acceptance of one's current condition. As I distil and compare my sense of "watcher-consciousness=me=completely different from/separate to/threatened by the rest of reality" with the "developing image" of an enlightened state in which all such things have gone the way of the dinosaurs, it's clear that that particular Pandora's Box (whether the consequent suffering is experienced by 'autistic' or 'normal' beings) is simply one of several unnecessary, over-elaborate strategies that arises in the mind as it tries to determine (or at least figure out) what it is. Being Buddhist won't save us from ourselves, but it might begin to save us from the need for 'self'.
Last edited by undefineable on Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: Autism

Postby undefineable » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:26 am

treefairy wrote:a self-awakened person would be weird in comparison to society. Especially THIS one.

I'm in the UK. I can't comment on your culture-specific tangent later in your post, except to say that it would be interesting to compare the political culture of the contemporary US with that of the German Weimar Republic {Before you start, don't forget the 'other' side was allied first with Lenin and then with Stalin :stirthepot: }
treefairy wrote:I knew one who was brainwashed .... our society is like this. blargh.

I've noticed -e.g. on the 'Wrongplanet' 'Politics, Philosophy and Religion' forum- that autistics often find it easy to conform to the 'intellectual posture' of an in-group, and naturally clamour to be accepted on that back of that. {It helps of course, that the autistic intellect operates in a vacuum.} I'm skeptical, though, that any autistic can be in any way 'like society' _ _

Cut to the chase:
treefairy wrote:There was a man earlier in this thread like that, who reported a profound oneness with the universe before his parents and society labeled him. I hope that the Dharma helps him and others find out what they really are
I'm skeptical that he -or any of us- is what we think we are. The 'universe' of an autistic self-evidently cannot be something sensed by way of meshing smoothly into the interactions of the world in the manner of -perhaps- the mind of a Bodhisattva, so I can't see how it can have much to do with the actual reality of other sentient beings. One can easily imagine how, if no Other is sensed apart from -say- the blank stuffiness of its own alaya, ego will happily declare a (Pyrrhic) victory. Refer to the page on Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche's "Watcher" that I linked to earlier.
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: Autism

Postby undefineable » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:49 am

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"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: Autism

Postby treefairy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:43 am

"I think few of us would be on Dharmawheel if we had neither the interest nor the stomach to contemplate the likes of makyo."

:)

"While growing up, I drifted and otherwise steered away from a makyo of sorts that's best described as shamanic rather than autistic. {I've read and heard a lot of first-hand accounts of autism, but mine seems unique in involving mental states that can't be categorised as thoughts, emotions, or sensations; I'd imagine this has more to do with the schizophrenia on my mother's side than the extreme introversion on my father's.} "

Hmm. Explain what happened to you? I dont think its related to either schizophrenia or autism :) Maybe it was less of a demon cave and more you being comfortable with your simultaneous immaterial existence?

"Your sidpa bardo analogy seems to fit better with the autism I've heard of and observed."

Thanks. I was wondering if everyone on this thought i was just plain off my base :P

"Either way, your 'yikes' made me laugh, but as I was saying on the Split-brain thread, altered states of consciousness are typically the proverbial pussy-cats (i.e. nothing to be scared of) whether you're an observer or a subject. This is true as long as either you've never known any different or you've deliberately accustomed yourself to them for whatever reason, particularly if you've apply the (dharma) teachings that say it's better to deal with the situation as it stands rather than messing around with its immediate causes. I wish you and your clients' patients the best of luck, of course, but I wonder how the simpler autistic cousins of the most complex known structure (the normal human brain) can be 'upgraded' to match it with the aid of chemical fluids alone "

I dont want to push the limits of that, or try to force anyone to be normal with 1500 pills (this is actually why i despise the psychiatric industry, aside from their Western insistence on ego).

"The opposite could equally be argued -that the enlightened are in fact super-normal- since they have removed the causes of any sense of individuated 'Self' separate from the world. When applied to persons, the label 'wierd' is typically associated with autism and schizophrenia, not with people who seem comfortable with themselves and their surroundings."

Depends.

Did your parents want to force you into a pushy western yuppie materialist mold?
Did you find it disgusting from day 1 because unlike other humans you werent born with the screaming howler monkey of ego in your head?
Did nihilism get forced upon you at age 7, making you depressed, moody and upset for most of your childhood until the point you were introduced to energies?
Did you try to resist all this and become the scapegoat in a nasty divorce, and THATS why you got labeled?
Have you ever had every metaphysical spark you threw off, or even your intelligence, be labeled as a symptom of the disorder?
Did you finally give in to your parents' ideology only to find that it pushed everyone away from you, because you were raised to believe other people were beneath you and generally in the way of your success?

And after that, did you encounter the Light and thereafter contract lifelong regret for betraying yourself and becoming a pushy yuppie just like your "me generation" parents?

Because thats what happened to me.... still wondering if im permanently screwed because of it, or by the things i did because of it. Ever make the mistake of attacking the biggest thing in the sidpa plane? I did that one before i knew anything about myself. Or that i was shooting missiles at Yama from the back of a really large asura. Which gets one hit by the biggest limiter ever developed as one gets sucked into the leyline system and imprinted with whatever you thought you were at the time. This is why one should never listen to the locals of the Grey.

(To try to fix -that- mistake, one must use the transference principle shortcut from the sidpa plane to the top and then with such knowledge of your highest umm... self... come barreling back down and effect the merit transfer from behind. I was reminded of what Neo did at the end of the last movie....)

In light of what i went through there over the past 30 years, have you ever questioned your diagnosis?

" Let's not forget that the word 'wierd' originally meant 'Destiny' (as in 'The Wyrd'), with all that word's implications of past karma / vipaka. Any path out of samsara, on the other hand, subverts -by definition- a being's 'destiny' to circle endlessly in it, paradoxically because the centrifugal force is removed by an acceptance of one's current condition."

But then you have the fun of other people attacking you and dragging you down because of your status. Humanity is like a bucket of crabs. Especially here.

" As I distil and compare my sense of "watcher-consciousness=me=completely different from/separate to/threatened by the rest of reality" with the "developing image" of an enlightened state in which all such things have gone the way of the dinosaurs, it's clear that that particular Pandora's Box (whether the consequent suffering is experienced by 'autistic' or 'normal' beings) is simply one of several unnecessary, over-elaborate strategies that arises in the mind as it tries to determine (or at least figure out) what it is. Being Buddhist won't save us from ourselves, but it might begin to save us from the need for 'self'."

Glad youre progressing. :thumbsup:

"I'm in the UK. I can't comment on your culture-specific tangent later in your post, except to say that it would be interesting to compare the political culture of the contemporary US with that of the German Weimar Republic {Before you start, don't forget the 'other' side was allied first with Lenin and then with Stalin"

It goes for all Western societies, really. But America and its current ongoing 30 year case of "Weimar Republic" is especially bad. As i noted above, the culture i was brought up in was toxic and ignorant. My father inflicted his own horrid misunderstanding of emptiness on me very early on, and thus drove me away from studying any of this until i was pretty much forced to by my encounter with the field. Psychiatry in this nation is totally for profit and even takes bribes from pushy yuppie parents who want their child to shut up about his dreams and feelings and such.

Im just WAITING for fascism to hit the fan on this side of the pond so i can look whoever they send for me in the eye and quote Obi-Wan as i end up dying by flamethrower or caseless minigun... :toilet:
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Re: Autism

Postby undefineable » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:00 pm

Treefairy, I didn't understand a couple of paragraphs from your last post, centering on this passage:
treefairy wrote:Which gets one hit by the biggest limiter ever developed as one gets sucked into the leyline system and imprinted with whatever you thought you were at the time. This is why one should never listen to the locals of the Grey.

There's a social message, of course, that most readers will glean from this - best summed up by the name David Icke. I get that you're writing to be understood by others who already 'get it', but after having read the whole post, I decided to reply because I was concerned, since you wrote:
treefairy wrote:Have you ever had every metaphysical spark you threw off, or even your intelligence, be labeled as a symptom of the disorder? _ _ Because that's what happened to me
that readers might connect autistics with that particular subculture. I also get that most of your images are metaphorical, as mine tend to be, but the degree of that might be unclear to many.

In short, your path thus far is as unique as mine or anyone else's, hence the "when you've met one autistic _ _ " cliche {It's a catch-all term rather than a distinct disorder, I guess.}

More to follow _ _
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: Autism

Postby undefineable » Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:15 am

treefairy wrote:"While growing up, I drifted and otherwise steered away from a makyo of sorts that's best described as shamanic rather than autistic. {I've read and heard a lot of first-hand accounts of autism, but mine seems unique in involving mental states that can't be categorised as thoughts, emotions, or sensations; I'd imagine this has more to do with the schizophrenia on my mother's side than the extreme introversion on my father's.} "

Hmm. Explain what happened to you? I dont think its related to either schizophrenia or autism :) Maybe it was less of a demon cave and more you being comfortable with your simultaneous immaterial existence?

Well the experiences were the kind that lead shamans to believe spirits inhabit the land and so on, but the less comfortable I grew with them, the more they drifted away, which in itself is counter-intuitive from a realistic/dharmic POV.
treefairy wrote:I dont want to push the limits of that, or try to force anyone to be normal with 1500 pills (this is actually why i despise the psychiatric industry, aside from their Western insistence on ego).

The thing about pills is that they don't 'force anyone to be normal' - They just suppress symptoms by (dodgy analogy coming) inserting a kind of fog between mind and brain.
treefairy wrote:Did you find it disgusting from day 1 because unlike other humans you werent born with the screaming howler monkey of ego in your head?

Autism merely sedated my 'monkey mind' - When it 'came to' in my adolescence, it was pretty cranky, and by my 20s, I'd had to sedate it again with a "beginner's" version of Buddhism. {Seroxat helped from then into my 30s}
treefairy wrote:Did nihilism get forced upon you at age 7, making you depressed, moody and upset for most of your childhood until the point you were introduced to energies?

The 'energies' make up most of my earliest memories; materialist values/philosophies didn't affect me until my teens.
treefairy wrote:Did you try to resist all this and become the scapegoat in a nasty divorce, and THATS why you got labeled?

Nope - I've always believed the cliche "you've got to make the most of life", and gradually extended this to its logical conclusion (typically for an 'aspie') by adding "otherwise you'll go to hell". {I'll be surprised if I don't find 'myself' there as soon as I die - whatever I manage to do in the meantime.} Also, as I was diagnosed autistic in 1999 (before most of the 'broadening of the diagnostic criteria') and also have undiagnosed Avoidant Personality Disorder, I've never had a relationship with a normal, straight woman. I was diagnosed "asperger's" at Uni because the 'AvPD' had left me so tense that I felt I owed it to my classmates to find out what was unnerving them about me. {I didn't realise then that it was mostly linked to my 'uptightness' and their snobbishness rather than my autism.}
treefairy wrote:Have you ever had every metaphysical spark you threw off, or even your intelligence, be labeled as a symptom of the disorder?

My intelligence works mainly as rote memory and a ~130 IQ test score. Autism to me is about what's *not* there, not about what is.
treefairy wrote:In light of what i went through there over the past 30 years, have you ever questioned your diagnosis?
Yes, but in the end, a non-autistic human mind automatically grounds both the open and the specific experience of each waking moment in a closed system of tacitly-agreed social (i.e. built up from 'I-v.-Other') meanings and relationships.
treefairy wrote:Glad youre progressing.

Any fool can dream up nirvana - It's like an 'aspie' glimpsing intuitions that belong to the 'human world' I just summed up - A mature non-autistic human is both there all the time and more than able to 'rise above' it.
Last edited by undefineable on Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Autism

Postby undefineable » Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:17 am

treefairy wrote:Did your parents want to force you into a pushy western yuppie materialist mold?

I wish! Mine are such serious hippies that they still 'talk the talk' but never really bothered with the look :rolleye: . What I wonder is whether there's much ultimate significance in what you or I have posted about our experiences, such as they are, or whether it's just "mix 'n' match samsara", which just gets more claustrophobic the more it's reified :thinking: . Still, it can all make for a good yarn at times:
treefairy wrote:Im just WAITING for fascism to hit the fan on this side of the pond so i can look whoever they send for me in the eye and quote Obi-Wan as i end up dying by flamethrower or caseless minigun... :toilet:

The message I get from certain US subcultures like the 'Tea Party' is "adapt or starve", though someone else here told me I was mistaken. I say 'starve', since -without being well-read- I've come across several references in literature attesting that elite/ruling classes would rather "fork out a packet" on defense -individually and collectively- than target the weak individually. Off the top of my head, Nietzsche's "nobles" only label "slavishness" "bad" as an afterthought, and Robert Graves's "Claudius the God" quotes the Roman proverb "The Eagle Does not Hawk for Flies".

Either way, since you're a private-sector professional, why so much rancour? I feel people who live and believe as your parents apparently do should be defended -though they by no means need defending- as there are hundreds of millions of them on this world alone, all putting in a degree of effort that would surely put Milarepa to shame. And let's be clear, these days they justify their work not with the actual reason they do it -to satisfy ego- but by the very real ways in which it supports and enriches not just their own lives but their families' lives and everyone else's as well.

I feel that bitter experience teaches us the value of both growing up and of respecting one's own maturity, rather than brushing it aside as something both too fragile to put any store on and too offensive to take pride in, as do so many "liberals" (as you would say) these days. I'm talking about maturity in the sense of relying on oneself for all kinds of support, and within samsara this still has valid implications in terms of a willing tendency to fill out each corner of one's mind with specific meanings. In the context of a limited human mind, this means developing particular sets of skills and understandings (e.g. of how to run a range of businesses successfully) rather than leaping from tree to tree as a "jack of all trades and master of none".

:focus: - This embraces autistics as much as anyone else. The problem for autistics is that such "skill-sets" have to start either from scratch or from an unpromisingly lopsided angle - Often, there's a lot of extra work involved in settling into a pattern and scope of of activity that also crystallises the relative aspect of one's being enough to benefit others in a way that's greater than the sum of what one has taken -and will inevitably take- from them. Something I've always struggled with is that -in any given situation- I've been able to see countless courses of action without necessarily 'feeling through' to one was a) appropriate socially or b) appropriate for me, so that when I hone in on one possibility to consider, I've more often than not reeled in revulsion when I've pictured it. I mentioned a 'heavy burden' in my last post only in the sense that an autistic who can't or won't find a technical 'bent' of some kind within himself doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. On the other hand, non-autistics naturally enter adult life already 'hooked in' to the world internally as well as externally, and if the economy is 'working' in any meaningful way, they have only to 'beef up' the 'hooks' that suit them. If we admit the development and use of such a 'functional self' is still fragile, then it's worth bearing in mind that even a long life is equally fragile in the sense that it ends relatively soon and might still end before its 'owner' has had time to digest what all this could mean! 'Youth is wasted on the Young' when young people worry too much about personal humiliation tomorrow whist -all the while- personal annihilation awaits them after just a few more tomorrows at most.

The real problem with the American version of 'materialistic culture' is the same problem that's lost that nation the leading edge in science and innovation - a bias against both the technical and the esoteric ('dreams and feelings' etc.) in favour of the 'social'. {P.s. Where I am, a 'nerd' is just tech-y; where you are, she could just as easily be 'arty' _ _ } Akusala actions on the level of whole cultures lose them wealth in the here and now, not just on some future 'Judgement Day', as early Christians hoped would happen to a Rome already hollowed out by mad Emperors. On the other hand, if someone is drawn to the arts and/or sciences for their own sake alone, is he or she really functioning as a fully human being on a day-to-day/moment-to-moment level?

As to the objection of offensiveness, it's been the case for a long time in the West that most of the endeavours people could put their hands to were beneficial to others rather than destructive. Leaving aside the importance (if Eisenhower is to be believed now) of armaments to the US economy, it's not usually a zero-sum game - While incompetence should lead to failure, honestly 'testing' one's inherited karma-tendencies should build up a useful profile of one's competence -i.e. which kinds of action to avoid, which to improve, and which to 'show off'- in one's mind.
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Re: Autism

Postby undefineable » Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:58 am

That's all, folks ;)
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Re: Autism

Postby treefairy » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:21 am

"There's a social message, of course, that most readers will glean from this - best summed up by the name David Icke. I get that you're writing to be understood by others who already 'get it', but after having read the whole post, I decided to reply because I was concerned, since you wrote:

Have you ever had every metaphysical spark you threw off, or even your intelligence, be labeled as a symptom of the disorder? _ _ Because that's what happened to me

that readers might connect autistics with that particular subculture. I also get that most of your images are metaphorical, as mine tend to be, but the degree of that might be unclear to many."

I do not have that disorder. Been throughly evaluated. The proper diagnosis all along should have been "pratyeka".

And i am also not part of the conspiranoid, closet anti-Semite culture of David Icke either. I think hes a good example of someone who should be in an inpatient psychiatric setting, if we had any anymore. And NOT allowed to write books.

Any more tasty assumptions?

"Well the experiences were the kind that lead shamans to believe spirits inhabit the land and so on, but the less comfortable I grew with them, the more they drifted away, which in itself is counter-intuitive from a realistic/dharmic POV."

So you suppressed yourself. Sad. Denying those aspects of reality is just as much a delusion as assuming the physical plane doesnt exist. Its why the existence of the universe is filed under the 14 questions. Note that in modern physics, theres more than enough dimensions to account for other planes coexisting just alongside ours, plus the field.

Open that back up again and watch your "autism" disappear. Seriously. We have the third eye for a reason. Been where you are, trust me, after i let this world get to me. The only way i found a way out was by rejecting their ideology, root and branch, the whole shot. It took some time, but I believe you can get there too.

P.S. No matter how hard i tried to suppress it to fall in line with this sick society, every night id still find a way out of my body :P

"I wish! Mine are such serious hippies that they still 'talk the talk' but never really bothered with the look ."

Trust me, pushy overbearing yuppie materialist parents is a layer of hell only a Ksitigharba emanation should have to go through...

"What I wonder is whether there's much ultimate significance in what you or I have posted about our experiences, such as they are, or whether it's just "mix 'n' match samsara", which just gets more claustrophobic the more it's reified . Still, it can all make for a good yarn at times:"

There is. You just have to relentlessly question everything, including those things you believe, falsely, to be inherent about you. (Signlessness, remember?). I think you worry too much about whether what you experience is real or not. Ive just had to learn to accept it, because after my encounter with the field i was essentially forced to quit running from myself.

"Either way, since you're a private-sector professional, why so much rancour? I feel people who live and believe as your parents apparently do should be defended -though they by no means need defending- as there are hundreds of millions of them on this world alone, all putting in a degree of effort that would surely put Milarepa to shame. And let's be clear, these days they justify their work not with the actual reason they do it -to satisfy ego- but by the very real ways in which it supports and enriches not just their own lives but their families' lives and everyone else's as well."

If you really, really think that earth-destroying yuppie materialism should be defended, you have everything twisted upside down and backwards. Those two are like shining examples of whats wrong with this world. If you want to live your life in a screwed up imitation of what the sidpa plane looks like to a ghost, go right ahead...

"I feel that bitter experience teaches us the value of both growing up and of respecting one's own maturity, rather than brushing it aside as something both too fragile to put any store on and too offensive to take pride in, as do so many "liberals" (as you would say) these days. I'm talking about maturity in the sense of relying on oneself for all kinds of support, and within samsara this still has valid implications in terms of a willing tendency to fill out each corner of one's mind with specific meanings. In the context of a limited human mind, this means developing particular sets of skills and understandings (e.g. of how to run a range of businesses successfully) rather than leaping from tree to tree as a "jack of all trades and master of none"."

Im not a conservative. Thats like the third offensive assumption youve made. STAHP.

-Lutz.
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Re: Autism

Postby undefineable » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:54 pm

I STAAHRT (writing, not just making insulting assumptions, lol) if someone pushes my buttons - That's nothing personal on a web-forum, or even with a real-life debating partner; it just means I sense a juicy discussion/topic to write on. I don't write online to socialise as do many autistics (and young people :| ), so this is all strictly business - even where it's pleasurable.

Nonetheless, I'm not so autistic that I don't know any better, so this is really all just wrong speech on my part, as I choose to to put my point across carelessly - You're nearly the third (fourth?) member I've scared away from Dharmawheel on this thread (autism having long been a major sore spot for me) and I see you're 'new', so my apologies to you and everyone else involved - Welcome to Dharmawheel :rolleye:

One misunderstanding, though:
treefairy wrote:"liberals" (as you would say)

Ah, must _ edit _ better - I meant "as you would say" in the sense that you might call yourself "a liberal". {In the UK, 'Liberal' is just an adjective -with many meanings- and not a noun.}

As to your points, I just want to say that in spite of everything, I don't believe there's ever a "me" that could be completely separate from a "world" which is really just the sum of all the "me's" working together with each other and the wider environment. In in the absence of sufficient shared habitual tendencies etc. (e.g. in cases of autism or schizophrenia), certain aspects of the mind's internal representation of the world are either left out or cobbled together from scratch, but the roots of a 'human' world are clearly still shared, along with everything necessary for rebirth in samsara. So, there's no "big bad world" out to get any of us - or (indeed) to look after us. If there were, each of its its many 'representatives' would have to define themselves ultimately as 'collective Other' rather than 'Self', which would of course be absurd. :soapbox:
treefairy wrote:Been where you are, trust me, after i let this world get to me. The only way i found a way out was by rejecting their ideology, root and branch, the whole shot. It took some time, but I believe you can get there too.

I don't feel I need to reject it as I don't completely accept it, and at 34, I'm not desperate for a change. Of course, in the US, the waters tend to get muddied by a religion that began as it's polar opposite (ironically much like where you seem to be coming from), so there's lots of subtle variations that need accounting for if you want to go down that road. The gist of what you call the "ideology of the world" seems to be the sense that life ought to be active rather than passive, and to my mind this one even gives the Buddhadharma a run for its money _ The life and world that we have is active by nature, and it becomes clear on reflection that ego -the sense that 'I' have to believe 'I' exist inherently- has many potential reasons to try and change that.
treefairy wrote:If you really, really think that earth-destroying yuppie materialism should be defended

What I was trying to plead for was a little compassion in approaching beings who genuinely feel -or at least tell themselves- they're successfully fighting their way out of all unsatisfactoriness and winning the secret of unlimited existence. Perhaps many of them are technically more asura than human by the time they reach the highest peaks of sophistication (given the exponential advances in civilisation since the Buddha's time), but their predicament is all the more tragic for it:

My girlfriend sometimes tells me about a great uncle of hers whose funeral we attended two years ago. By all accounts he was literally the 'corporate high-flyer', spending much of his time spinning around the world on Business trips; on the rare occasions when he returned home, he'd push his sons to emulate him. When he finally stepped back to enjoy a well-earned retirement, his mind plummeted straight into the violent terror of early-onset senile dementia.

Sometimes the crabs fall back into the barrel without needing to be pulled _ _

One conundrum still interests me:
treefairy wrote:"Well the experiences were the kind that lead shamans to believe spirits inhabit the land and so on, but the less comfortable I grew with them, the more they drifted away, which in itself is counter-intuitive from a realistic/dharmic POV."

So you suppressed yourself. Sad. Denying those aspects of reality is just as much a delusion as assuming the physical plane doesnt exist.

My mother and the poet Wordsworth atleast (lol) also seem to have experienced them, but only in early childhood. If I'd actively suppressed them, I'd have been done with them a lot earlier, but as it was, I was still tripping my way through much of University without the aid of drugs, given the added stress involved. {I rarely even got 'round to alcohol!}

But unlike something rare but known (like poor social skills or hallucinations), no-one really talks about this whole 'sensed presence' thing, unless perhaps they've decided for their sanity's sake that a so-far-unnameable experience has to point to already-named things like 'gods' or what have you. {I'd guess it all has more to do with electromagnetism and the play of other sensory impressions than anything else.} The fact that we can't find out how to do anything with it is problematic - What is life without the collaboration of others?
treefairy wrote:Open that back up again and watch your "autism" disappear.

Something similar may have done that for you, but the field of experience I'm talking about removed me from the social realm of experience and into another realm which manifested my autism. My mum even said she was never "in both at the same time".
treefairy wrote:Seriously. We have the third eye for a reason.
See viewtopic.php?f=40&t=12100&start=20
Anyway,
treefairy wrote:"What I wonder is whether there's much ultimate significance in what you or I have posted about our experiences, such as they are, or whether it's just "mix 'n' match samsara", which just gets more claustrophobic the more it's reified . Still, it can all make for a good yarn at times:"

There is. You just have to relentlessly question everything, including those things you believe, falsely, to be inherent about you.

:thumbsup: Starting to progress on that one - It's fascinating to see the con-tricks and game-plans that do -and those that don't- go into them. I guess Anatta is just a convincing (and somewhat forbidding) theory before any of us can say that. Of course, what this all really means is that the ultimate significance of the particulars of our experience is that -individually- they have no ultimate significance of their own _ _ _
treefairy wrote:I think you worry too much about whether what you experience is real or not.

It is and it isn't. What the experience is is another question.
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: Autism

Postby treefairy » Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:11 am

that third eye thread actually has a lot of good answers for this one!

Tobes in particular, and this is about my view as well...

"I think what perhaps we'd all agree on is that Buddhism - all forms of Buddhism - does not deny what you might call paranormal phenomena. And in some respects, it may see such phenomena as expressive of more heightened states of consciousness than everyday empirical awareness. But these states are not privileged in any way; they are generally treated as mundane - and are often considered a distraction from what is genuinely spiritually fruitful and wholesome. My own personal view - which others may not agree with - is that it is far better to be open and inquisitive about non-empirical states of awareness than not. And that it is good to investigate. You're trying to find what is there, what you are, what you are capable of. That is the kind of spirit that can lead you to wholesome paths."

this thus is a question of upaya.... as Karma Dondrup Tashi put it.

"Everything is a symbol including enlightenment. No-one is disputing that there is a view. The question as with many difficult questions is finding the exceedingly tiny balancing point between the two truths for purposes of skillful means."

I hope everyone finds THAT point :)

and before that theres this one which is pure gold.....

"Andrew108 wrote:
I don't establish a third eye as being anything at all ...

It isn't and neither is your stomach but I have a feeling you'll be eating lunch today."

:rolling:
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Re: Autism

Postby greentara » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:10 pm

I saw a doco the other night about autism in China where apparently there are many millions suffering from autism and it is poorly understood.
It showed a a couple with a small boy tied up and trying to self harm, The parents were distraught, the child lost in his own tormented world. The mothers sadness was almost too much to watch as she whispered sweet nothings in her sons ear, wishing him well, wishing him to recover, all the tears and fears in raw display. Finally a school accepted the boy for 6 months without fee and it gave the parents a small window of hope. That little bit of hope so welcoming,
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Re: Autism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:43 pm

Angelic Fruitcake wrote:That problem is non-existent for me. I have ADHD too. Sitting still is so painful it itches. Literally. I have to begin with yoga or walking alone before I can sit. Personally I find my mind rests better when my body is exercising, so for now that's what I do. Maybe when my mind is better trained I can sit effectively.
I think you would love prostrations! Meditation and movement at the same time.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Autism

Postby muni » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:21 pm

Temple learns us the diversity of eachother, not the clasification out of "our group". She helps in her wonderful way. A fool is pushing certain clouds of certain forms in one box and the other in another box. At least Temple makes the diversity clear to me in her many teachings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pwI8ti6Jhk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok6jkDiJFAQ :smile:

The horse boy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYkT_GndKtE

:namaste:
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Re: Autism

Postby Kim O'Hara » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:10 pm

Nothing to do with Buddhism but may be of interest to some folk here - "Apps for Autism" http://www.iautism.info/en/2011/12/01/book-review-apps-for-autism/
I don't know it but remembered this discussion when I came across a recommendation of it.

:namaste:
Kim
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Re: Autism

Postby denny » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:22 pm

Did you know many agree Albert Einstein had Asberger Syndrome? Did you know others with AS have won Nobel prizes?

So much (everything) depends on the understanding, direction, support and love of their family. (I would join with that other mother and try to have that teacher removed very quickly before she can harm others. It can be and has been done in other similar cases.)

Empathy? I've got AS (70 now) and I believe empathy for others is skewed by bad experience. It's hard for normal people, with the normal group of friends and classmates, in a normal day by day life to fully understand what it's like to spend every day, minute, hour suffering rejection (to say nothing of taunting, bullying, and fighting) without friends. Not surprising he didn't want to go back to all the extra crippling stress. That any empathy remains in your son is a testament to his strength and upbringing. I don't believe anyone "understands" empathy for others more than those who've been deprived.

If you can have your son see a psychologist who understands AS, a few session explaining the actions of others will help him cope.

Our hearts and love are with you,
Denny

P.S. Having a younger child learn about forgiveness and compassion would help his future life as well.
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Re: Autism

Postby wisdom » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:59 pm

If you have tremendous compassion for others
Without seeing their motivations
How wonderful!
Now you won't think poorly of others
By seeing hidden faults
And can express only love for them
In any way you are able.

If you are unable to identify with people socially
What a blessing!
Now you won't get entrenched in seeking approval
For frivolous and pointless goals
Wanting or not wanting
To be seen in a certain way
But can simply be yourself.

If you find yourself focused intensely on a single subject
What a great accomplishment!
Focus it on the Dharma
Reread sacred texts
And devote yourself to intensive study and practice.

If you find that you want to repeat things over and over
Use it to your advantage!
Find a mantra you enjoy
Say it with a compassionate mind
The enlightened intent of the Bodhisattvas
Accumulate great merit for yourself
And see yourself liberated as swiftly as possible!

When others turn away from you in confusion
Understand them to be deluded
They do not understand you
Any more than you understand them
On that basis, see the gap between sentient beings
Caused by deluded concepts and ideas
Wishing well of everyone
Maintain a compassionate mindset
Forgiving the poor beings
Who are equally unable to understand others.

If you find your condition makes you isolated
What an advantage in Dharma!
How few are they who can live alone
Unaccompanied by constant distraction
And dedicate themselves
To Dharma for the sake of the enlightenment of all!

How unfortunate are regular beings
Who, not seeing the essence
Having no compassion
Become distracted in social pursuits
Become deluded in thinking they always need company
They call being with others "not being alone"
And they crave constant companions
But they are more alone than ever
Because they have not seen the all compassionate
All pervasive, vast Buddha nature
That resides within themselves
Fulfilling every wish, displaying the great inseparable unity of all!

How unfortunate are regular beings
Having no ability to dedicate themselves to Dharma
Find themselves constantly distracted
Without devotion, seeking worldly things
Thinking it will relieve their happiness
If only they could obsessively focus on Dharma
How much better off they would become!

Although this is just my spontaneous, personal opinion as someone who does not have ADHD or Aspergers, may it bring benefit to those who do and aspire to learn the Dharma!
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Re: Autism

Postby pemachophel » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:04 pm

I have AS (well-documented and diagnosed) and I totally agree with Wisdom's doha. AS has been a great boon for my practice of the Dharma for all the reasons stated therein. Before I retired to full-time practice of the Dharma, AS also helped me achieve worldwide fame and fortune in my profession. Admittedly, I am "high-functioning," but, at 67, I do not regret my AS one bit. For me, it has been a blessing, not a curse, even all the pain that has often gone along with it.

Wisdom, what's the source of this doha?

:namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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