Heart Sutra question

[Bonsai Doug]

My readings/study are primarily Theravada. But I try not to limit myself, and appreciate other traditions.

The Heart Sutra may be short, but it's a tough one to understand. For example, in all the things that are
negated in that sutra, it seems to me that it also negates the Four Noble Truths and the Eight-fold Path.

This line is giving me problems:
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.

Can someone either explain how this is not negating the 4 Truths and The Path, or perhaps point me to
some reading material explaining this sutra?

TIA

[DarwidHalim]

Suffering is caused by our distorted view about what is going on right now.

FOr the same event, ordinary being view this event as suffering. But for enlightened being, he doesn't see that as suffering. He also doesn't see it as happiness. He also doesn't see it as neutral.

So, suffering purely comes from our view in seeing the world.

The world itself is never suffering. Even the war in Afganistan is actually not suffering. It is just a display or a dance of empty or void-phenomena.

Enlightened being can be in the middle of war, and he is still absolutely serene. He will not be disturbed at all by running missile, scream of people, etc. This is not because they are blind or deaf, but because they can see everything is just a dance of void-appearances.

So suffering lies in our view.
It doesn't lie in the phenomena itself.

Because we ourself is also in the phenomena, our body is also just a dance of empty appearances. Void.

Becuase phenomena cannot have an identity. It cannot have the identity of good, bad, suffering, and pleasure.

If we think they have, it is purely our distorted view or karmic view.

If you see your own shit, it is shit, dirty and disgusting. Can you see it is just a dance of phenomena, which is not dirty and disgusting? If you change to a fly in the next second, you will see your shit as a most delicious food on earth. At that moment, you will see shit is the most precious thing on earth.

When you are human, you see diamond as the most precious thing. But let's say you become a fly in the next minute, you will see diamond as just an useless thing.

Your view change. But actually reality never changes.

You need to prove this yourself in your meditation. If you see slowly and slowly, you will see the phenomena is actually have no value at all. It doesn't have the value of suffering or happiness. We are the one who impose those values to it.

When you are human you impose bad thing to your shit.
When you are a fly, you impose good thing to your shit.

But, the shit itself is actually never have any value.

So in reality, reality is always free from any value.

If is it suffering, it is your view who see this is suffering. But from the reality point of view, they are just dance of void-appearances.

That is why:
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.

THe suffering is your view, which you impose to something which has no value.
Cause of suffering, is also your view, this is because of this and that.
End of suffering is also your view.
THe path to follow is also your view.

If you have the view of suffering, definitely the mistake or erroneous view regarding what is the cause, how to end it, what is the path, will all follow.

But if you can see, suffering is actually what we impose based on our karmic view, the cause, the end, and the path of suffering is also just the view we impose on the dance of void-appearances.

You need to prove it yourself within your meditation, try to see what is the actual value of all you see, all you hear, all you eat, etc.

You will find it is just your game of karmic view.

Outside your mind, they are actually free from any value.

[jeeprs]

I can see the sense of the above post, but I think it is a little hard to fathom from the viewpoint of 'ordinary mind'. (I presume that's where most of us are, right?) So it may be true that 'from the viewpoint of the enlightened, there is no suffering'. But of course, the unenlightened do not understand that viewpoint, by definition, so to us, it seems like the negation of everything we actually need from the teaching. We are looking for guidance, something to work with. So, my way of framing it, is that the Mahayana sutras are like 'voices from the far shore', the view from the other side. Of course from our side it is impossible to comprehend that perspective. And furthermore, it's not an intellectual argument, in the sense that philosophy understands it, but arises from a transformed consciousness. That's why, traditionally, such verses are chanted and contemplated, rather than argued. They really depend on awakening 'prajna', through meditation as both their method, and their goal, so that they can be understood intuitively.

One thing that might help with this are some of the Western scholarly accounts of how the Buddhist tradition developed which explains the dynamics of how the Mahayana emerged from the early tradition. (Traditional Buddhism is not so strong on that as they usually write from somewhere within it). But a couple of texts that might help in that regard are Conze's Buddhism: Its Essence and Development and Buddhism: An Outline of Its Teaching and its Schools by Hans Wolfgang Schumann. Also, there is a well-regarded commentary on the Heart Sutra by Thich Nat Hanh, The Heart of Understanding.

[Jnana]

The Heart Sutra may be short, but it's a tough one to understand. For example, in all the things that are
negated in that sutra, it seems to me that it also negates the Four Noble Truths and the Eight-fold Path.

This line is giving me problems:
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.

Can someone either explain how this is not negating the 4 Truths and The Path,

This statement pertains to the ultimate, which is emptiness. Emptiness means that all phenomena lack self-nature (niḥsvabhāvatā), and by realizing emptiness in meditative equipoise one abandons the recognition of arising, duration, and dissolution (utpādasthitibhaṅga). This is equivalent to realizing the truth of the cessation of suffering (duḥkhanirodha āryasatya). Thus, the quote you provided doesn't negate the four noble truths and the noble eightfold path as conventionally true and soteriologically necessary for awakening. In fact, the four noble truths and the 37 requisites of awakening are mentioned and explained in the longer Prajñāpāramitā Sūtras.

or perhaps point me to some reading material explaining this sutra?

Elaborations on Emptiness: Uses of the Heart Sūtra by Donald S. Lopez includes English translations of all eight existing Indian commentaries on the Heart Sūtra that were translated into Tibetan.

My readings/study are primarily Theravada. But I try not to limit myself, and appreciate other traditions.

BTW, the Pañcaviṃśatisāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra and the Prajñāpāramitopadeśa (translated into Chinese by Kumārajīva) explain a number of practices which will be easily recognizable to anyone who's familiar with the Pāli Tipiṭaka (e.g. the four applications of mindfulness, the recognition of unattractiveness, the cemetery contemplations, etc.).

[LastLegend]

There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.
TIA

If there is no suffering, then there is no cause of suffering.
Then no need to end suffering, then of course no path is needed.

There is this, there is that...Dependent Origination.

Now we suffer, that is why there is a path.

And of course enlightened beings no longer suffer, no path is needed for them.

[Bonsai Doug]

After some further reading, I came across a commentary and translation by the Nalanda Translation Committee.

This brief commentary kind of clears things up a bit for me:

The emptiness described refers to things as they really are - empty of all the concepts by which we grasp them
and fit them into our world - empty of all we project upon them.

[DarwidHalim]

.... by realizing emptiness in meditative equipoise one abandons the recognition of arising, duration, and dissolution (utpādasthitibhaṅga). ....

What do you mean by abandon?

During sleep without dream, we also abandon recognition of arising, duration, and dissolution.

WHat is the difference between abandoning such things in the dream, abandoning such things in the meditative state, and abandoning such things in the post-meditative state?

The abandon that you describe sound like you put it aside, instead of in reality you fully realize there is really no such thing called arising, duration, and dissolution.

[Jnana]

What do you mean by abandon?

Cease to perceive.

WHat is the difference between abandoning such things in the dream, abandoning such things in the meditative state, and abandoning such things in the post-meditative state?

The direct realization of emptiness requires non-conceptual jñāna.

[Konchog1]

My readings/study are primarily Theravada. But I try not to limit myself, and appreciate other traditions.

The Heart Sutra may be short, but it's a tough one to understand. For example, in all the things that are
negated in that sutra, it seems to me that it also negates the Four Noble Truths and the Eight-fold Path.

This line is giving me problems:
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.

Can someone either explain how this is not negating the 4 Truths and The Path, or perhaps point me to
some reading material explaining this sutra?

TIA

It's not that plain. It's not saying the Four Truths don't exist (they do) but that they don't exist in the way you think. As Nagarjuna would put it: they both exist and do not exist at the same time. They (like everything else) are projections of the mind applied to phenomena in dependence on their parts.

For example: a car is not a car. Cars doesn't exist. Because of the tires, trunk, lights, hood, seats, steering wheel, gears shifter and so forth you think 'car'.

So cars exist because people create the concepts but don't actually exist by themselves. Just like everything else including the parts of the car.

This is just how I see it.

[DarwidHalim]

Jnana:
You said cease to perceive.

What is the difference between the person in jhana state with the piece of wood then?
A piece of wood certainly doesn't perceive arising, duration, and cessation.

Jnana:
The direct realization of emptiness requires non-conceptual jñāna.

What do you mean by non-conceptual Jnana?
If you can say non-conceptual Jnana, why there is the act of abandon?

[Jnana]

What is the difference between the person in jhana state with the piece of wood then?
A piece of wood certainly doesn't perceive arising, duration, and cessation.

Not all dhyānas (Pāli: jhāna) are liberating, i.e. supramundane. The difference in this case is the presence or absence of non-conceptual jñāna (N.B. jñāna is not to be confused with the Pāli term "jhāna").

What do you mean by non-conceptual Jnana?

The term is nirvikalpajñāna, which is a cognition that discerns the absence of self-nature.

If you can say non-conceptual Jnana, why there is the act of abandon?

Not sure I understand the question. But at any rate, the bodhisattva path is developed in order to eliminate cognitive and affective obscurations (jñeyavaraṇa & kleśāvaraṇa). The affective obscurations are eliminated during the path of meditation on the first seven bodhisattva bhūmis. Habitual tendencies, the most subtle cognitive obscurations, are abandoned and eliminated by the vajra-like samādhi at the culmination of the tenth bodhisattva bhūmi. Without eliminating these obscurations there is no possibility of attaining complete awakening (i.e. anuttarā samyaksaṃbodhi).

[Dexing]

My readings/study are primarily Theravada. But I try not to limit myself, and appreciate other traditions.

The Heart Sutra may be short, but it's a tough one to understand. For example, in all the things that are
negated in that sutra, it seems to me that it also negates the Four Noble Truths and the Eight-fold Path.

This line is giving me problems:
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.

Can someone either explain how this is not negating the 4 Truths and The Path, or perhaps point me to
some reading material explaining this sutra?

TIA

It certainly does negate the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. It also negates the 12 links of Dependent Origination: "No ignorance or ending of ignorance, up to and including no old age and death and no ending of old age and death".

It also negates wisdom and attainment, the "ultimate goals", but then turns right around and says: "All Buddhas of the three periods of time attain Anuttarā-samyak-saṃbodhi through reliance on Prajñā-pāramitā." That's again wisdom and attainment there!

How is this not contradictory, you may ask? The first half of the sūtra is talking about the misapprehension of ordinary people. The latter half is talking about the direct seeing of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. The so-called "wisdom" and "attainment" ordinary beings speak of, is not the true wisdom and attainment actualized by Buddhas and Bodhisattvas.

Shenguang asked Bodhidharma to pacify his mind. But when Bodhidharma asked Shenguang to hand him his mind so that he might pacify it, Shenguang was unable to find his mind. Bodhidharma then told him; "then I've already pacified it."

So where is this so-called suffering? Can you point to it, or is it merely a mental fabrication? If suffering is mentally formed it has no self-nature. If there is no suffering, there can be no cause, cessation, or path to its cessation.

If even suffering is fundamentally insubstantial, then there is no need for the rest of the teaching aimed at curing an ailment that doesn't exist. Nonetheless, ordinary beings do in fact cause and cling to their own illusory suffering. Therefore, the Buddha must fabricate a path from within their illusion which can lead them out of it. Hence declaring the first fabricated-yet-Noble Truth. So it is said in the Diamond Sutra:

"If such men allowed their minds to
grasp and hold on to anything they would be cherishing the
idea of an ego-entity, a personality, a being, or a separated
individuality; and if they grasped and held on to the notion of
things as having intrinsic qualities they would be cherishing the
idea of an ego-entity, a personality, a being, or a separated
individuality.

Likewise, if they grasped and held on to the
notion of things as devoid of intrinsic qualities they would be
cherishing the idea of an ego-entity, a personality, a being, or a separated individuality.
So you should not be attached to things as being possessed of, or devoid of, intrinsic qualities.

This is the reason why the Tathagata always teaches this
saying: My teaching of the Good Law is to be likened unto a
raft. [Does a man who has safely crossed a flood upon a raft
continue his journey carrying that raft upon his head?]

The Buddha-teaching must be relinquished; how much more so
mis-teaching!"

[DarwidHalim]

There is a HUGE different between these two terms:
1. Cleaning the floor because there is a dirt.
2. Not cleaning the floor because that dirt is actually not a dirt.

It is extremely difficult for dualistic people not to see dirt as not a dirt. Therefore, when the practice buddhism, they try so hard to get rid of this, get rid of that. Get rid of anger, get rid of jealousy, etc. They want to keep a distance with anger, jealously, hatred, and so on.

Why they want to get rid of it? Because they FAIL to see the true face or the true nature of anger, jealousy, hatred, and so on.

For anyone who fail to see the true nature or true face of anger, jealousy, etc., they will try to make themselves as far as possible for all those negative things. They create distance. Huge distance.

Why do you create distance? Because we see they are negative. Why we see they are negative? Because we fail to see their nature.

If we can understand emptiness of self perfectly, there is no such thing call negative, postive, or neutral. You cannot impose any value on anything.

WHen the anger appear, if you fail to see the nature of anger, at that moment you will straight away put a sticker - this anger is negative, destructive, I must do something to get rid of it. What do you do then? Instead of being in the state of anger, you change your attention to breathing, etc.

This practice is good. But it is weak. You will always like a sick person who always need a medicine.

Heart sutra doesn't teach us in that way.

Heart sutra present thing in the negative way.
Why? Because it tells us straight away, directly to heart of the issue:
In that anger, there is no anger.
In that suffering, there is no suffering.
Whatever possible things you can think about, is always always not there.

If someone come and torture us, for sure we will say this is unbearable suffering. It is extremely difficult to say this is not suffering.

But, if you cool down and slowly see the whole process, they are just the flux of phenoma. They are the transient phenomena. They are the dance of appearances.

They have so many varieties of colors, tastes, experiences, etc. But all of them, no matter how complex and complicated they are, they are as simple as the flux of phenomena.

We like to say like this:
THere is no self, but please abandon this.

THat is wrong.
From the subject point of view, you absolutely say there is no something called self.
But, in the second part, you say abandon this.
When you say abandon, at that moment you have reinforce the self. You cannot run away.

If you declare the predicate, no matter how good you are in declaring no self, you have actually deep inside you, you have declare the self. Unavoidable.

For those you know the nature of things: there is no different at all the state of jhana and the state of anger.

Both of them are just transient thing. Because you can see they are just transient thing, the jhana state has no chance at all of bind you. The state of anger also has no chance to disturb you.

Instead, within these two states, you will absoluty serene when the show of anger play, and you will absolutely serene when the show of jhana play.

THey have different colors, but they are just transient.

Jhana state is not better than the anger state, Anger state is also not better than jhana state.

Why don't you do something, like abandon something, change something, transform something?
Because you can see clearly:
Inside anger, it is not an anger.
Inside Jhana, it is not a jhana.
Inside suffereing, it is not a suffering.

They are purely transient and flux phenomena.

There is no suffering, no increment, no decrement, inside all those phenomena, because you cannot have any self of suffering, any self that can increase, and any self that can decrease.

There is also no self that can suffer, and no self that can happy.

That is why boddisattva after they reach enlightenment, they don't stay in the fake meditative state to experience the bliss. They see clearly, in the hell, there is also bliss for anyone who realize non-duality.

They don't need to purposely sit and meditate, because they see clearly the meditative state has exactly same nature with the nature when you don't meditate. Transient.

Because they realize actually they are always inside transient, they are always in meditate state.

Heart sutra certainly negate the 4 noble truth in their any possible existence we can think off.

4 noble truth can only stand if you have SUBJECT, and if you have self.

4 noble truth is designed by buddha to suit us who has a believe there is a self. This teaching is built based on the assumption and foundation there is a self.

4 noble truth is important, because we start from dualistic mind. We need that

But, once you are mature in getting rid of dualistic mind, you must know its limitation - which is standing on the foundation of self.

Because there is dualistic mind that grasp at self - 4 noble truth is a diamond teaching.
But
When you realize there is no self - 4 noble truth is alient.

[Jnana]

Sorry peeps, but this isn't the pseudo-zen bullshit forum.

[DarwidHalim]

It is indeed hard to see beyond our dualistic mind.

In Sunyata, there is no abandon.

If you abandon, you just dont get what sunyata is.

[Jnana]

In Sunyata, there is no abandon.

If you abandon, you just dont get what sunyata is.

A good prescription for rebirth in the lower realms.

[DarwidHalim]

Only for those who like fabrication of idea, they stay in the illusion of arising, passing away, alteration.

Sankhata Sutta: Fabricated
"Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) while staying is discernible.

FOr those who can see emptiness, they will not live in the fabrication of idea.
They are free from arising, passing away, and alteration.

Sankhata Sutta: Fabricated
"Now these three are unfabricated characteristics of what is unfabricated. Which three? No arising is discernible, no passing away is discernible, no alteration of what stays is discernible.

No arising, no passing away, NO ALTERATION, right from the start.

What do you want to abandon, when you can discern no arising, no passing away, and no alteration?
Illusion alter illusion.
Illusion abandon illusion.

Sometime when you think about our state, it is pity living in this way.

[Dexing]

Sorry peeps, but this isn't the pseudo-zen bullshit forum.

That's pretty rude. Who and what are you even talking about?

[Dexing]

In Sunyata, there is no abandon.

If you abandon, you just dont get what sunyata is.

A good prescription for rebirth in the lower realms.

How so?

The meaning is that in śūnyatā there is "nothing" to be abandoned, and to hold that there is something to abandon is to necessarily partake of the idea of an entity. This would be the śrāvaka path of "emptying" the personal selfhood but leaving the selfhood of dharmas which are also to be "emptied" in the Mahāyāna.

[Indrajala]

This line is giving me problems:
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.

Can someone either explain how this is not negating the 4 Truths and The Path, or perhaps point me to
some reading material explaining this sutra?

There is ultimate reality and there is conventional reality. The Four Noble Truths are conventional. Ultimately, however, there are no truths to be discerned, nor suffering, cause, end or path to follow.

As it is related in the literature, if in prajñā there are discerned phenomena, then it is not prajñā. If there is any cognized phenomena then it is conventional reality, not ultimate reality.