The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Will » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:

Yes, but your point has little bearing on the original meaning of the MPSN sutra as a text in its own right, apart from the various sectarian uses and interpretations of it there may be been. I was discussing the fact that originally the MPNS introduced a eternalism into Buddhism.

M


Yes, and I am discussing the last 1500 years or so of influence of the larger standard, popular sutra. Conversely, your scholarly point "has little bearing" on my point.

Ah, if only the pointless Dzogchenpa would reappear.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:47 pm

Will wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Yes, but your point has little bearing on the original meaning of the MPSN sutra as a text in its own right, apart from the various sectarian uses and interpretations of it there may be been. I was discussing the fact that originally the MPNS introduced a eternalism into Buddhism.

M


Yes, and I am discussing the last 1500 years or so of influence of the larger standard, popular sutra. Conversely, your scholarly point "has little bearing" on my point.

Ah, if only the pointless Dzogchenpa would reappear.


Well you and I both know that the very few people actually read these texts, like Astus (and me, etc.), tend to cherry pick them to make their points. My consideration here is simply to point out to Astus that his citations come from a part of the sutra found only in Chinese sources.

Therefore, they have little bearing on the essential subject of this thread, as I understand it i.e. the presence of a Buddhist eternalism in India. So I suspect we are not having the same conversation.
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Astus » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:35 pm

Malcolm,

I find that last section part quite in line with the eternalist idea, even if it is something added later. I don't see that in East Asia they had a problem with this. In fact, although this did not really exist in India, the whole East Asian branch - or rather as it evolved - can be called tathagatagarbha-vada. They had no Hindus around to debate on the atman-anatman issue, so names like the True Self is still alive, and the four attributes of buddha-nature as stated in the Nirvana Sutra is taught.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Will » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Will wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Yes, but your point has little bearing on the original meaning of the MPSN sutra as a text in its own right, apart from the various sectarian uses and interpretations of it there may be been. I was discussing the fact that originally the MPNS introduced a eternalism into Buddhism.

M


Yes, and I am discussing the last 1500 years or so of influence of the larger standard, popular sutra. Conversely, your scholarly point "has little bearing" on my point.

Ah, if only the pointless Dzogchenpa would reappear.


Well you and I both know that the very few people actually read these texts, like Astus (and me, etc.), tend to cherry pick them to make their points. My consideration here is simply to point out to Astus that his citations come from a part of the sutra found only in Chinese sources.

Therefore, they have little bearing on the essential subject of this thread, as I understand it i.e. the presence of a Buddhist eternalism in India. So I suspect we are not having the same conversation.


Like a bulldog, you just will not let it go.

The thread title & the OP reveal that good old Thornbush (whatever happened to him?) in 2009 started this "conversation" with no parameters, other than subjects dealing with the Mahaparinirvana Sutra.

Thus there can be and are, different conversations dealing with the sutra, some of which do not overlap.

So go in peace, my child.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:14 am

HEY ASTUS

HEY BROTHER okay I'll sum it up then you can read thru my evidence.
in your qoutes you sent WHAT emptiness(void) is it talking about????if you read page 193/194/195 and page 205 their are 11 types of emptiness(void) listed and two aspects of void in relations so that is 11 types of emptiness. what you qouted me was the Buddha and Buddha nature is the same as the ALL VOID,okay what is the ALL VOID?read PG 318 the ALL VOID is WISDOM or in PG 194 is commonly called the EYE of WISDOM.now look at page 205 this tells you the stages a person takes to become ENLIGHTENED,he practices precepts/then meditation"right rememberace"then he practices and ((((GAINS))) the 11 SHUNTATAS(EMPTINESSES)and when you GAIN the 11 emptines meditations you are titled (ONE WHO PRACTICES the PURE MEDITATION of the Bodhisattva)
THEY NEXT PRACTICE PURE WISDOM(ALL VOID)and gain enlightenment
now read pg 194 again=( O good man! There are only the Tathagata, Dharma, and Sangha, and the Buddha-Nature. This has no two aspects of the Void. Why not? For the four are the Eternal, Bliss, Self, and the Pure. ((That is why we do not say that these four are void))). (((We call this the All-Void))) of both the internal and the external.

you are equating Tathagatagarbha to plain emptiness(11 types of void)where as the ALL VOID (wisdom) is not the same thing and goes BEYOND.

to conclude we are talking about to different things.11 types of emptiness(which is the second to last practice) and the final practice which is the eye of wisdom(ALL VOID)

also emptiness is not a bad thing it just not the final goal it leads up to the final goal(even the Lotus sutra mentions that emptiness was not extinction or the final way but BUDDHA WISDOM is the last step(i'll mine that qoute if you want me too?)

Peace and Love nite nite time.

Chapter 22 on pure actions 2 PG 194.

Bodhisattva Kasyapa said to the Buddha: "O World-Honoured One! What do you mean by the Void?" "O good man! Of the Void, there are such as the internal, external, internal-external Void, the Void of created existence, the Void of the uncreated, the Void of beginninglessness, the Void of nature, the Void of non-possession, the Void of “Paramartha-satya”, the Void-Void, and the Great Void.
"It is the same with the internal-external Void [“adhyatma-bahirdha-shunyata”]. O good man! There are only the Tathagata, Dharma, and Sangha, and the Bddha-Nature. This has no two aspects of the Void. Why not? For the four are the Eternal, Bliss, Self, and the Pure. That is why we do not say that these four are void. We call this the All-Void of both the internal and the external.
and that of the Buddhist is eternal. O good man! The Way, Enlightenment, and Nirvana are all eternal. All beings are always overshadowed by innumerable defilements, and as they lack the eye of Wisdom, they cannot see. But in order to see, all beings practise shila [morality], samadhi [meditative absorption], and Wisdom. By practising these, they see the Way, Enlightenment, and Nirvana. The nature and characteristics of the Way do not suffer from birth and death. Hence, it is hard to grasp.

Charpter 23 on pure actions PG 205

This is how the Bodhisattva observes pure shila. The precepts are already pure [with him]. He then next practises meditation. Through practising meditation, wherever he may be, he abides in right remembrance and does not forget. That is to say that beings all have the Buddha-Nature; that there are the twelve types of scripture, and that the All-Buddha-World-Honoured One is the Eternal, Bliss, the Self, and the Pure. All Bodhisattvas abide in the vaipulya Great Nirvana Sutra and see the Buddha-Nature. They rightly remember all of this and do not forget. Through practising dhyanas [meditations], they gain eleven shunyatas [emptinesses]. This is the practising of the pure meditation of the Bodhisattva. Achieving shila and meditation, they next practise pure Wisdom. By practising Wisdom, they first see the Self in the body and the body in the Self. There are no such clingings as: this body, this Self, no body, and no Self. This is practising the pure Wisdom of the Bodhisattva. By practising Wisdom the shila which he observes is steadfast and does not move. O good man! It is like Sumeru, which does not shake, in spite of the winds from the four quarters. The same is the case with the Bodhisattva-mahasattva. He does not shake, in spite of the four inversions. O good man! The shila which the Bodhisattva knows, sees and realises and upholds at that time does not shake. That is why we say that what the Bodhisattva knows, sees and realises is not of the world. O good man! The Bodhisattva has no repentance in his mind when he sees that the shila he upholds is steadfast. As there is no regret, there is joy in his mind. As he has joy, his mind is happy. As he is happy, his mind is at peace. As his mind is at peace, there comes about an immovable samadhi. As the samadhi is immovable, there is true knowing and seeing. Due to true knowing and seeing, there is parting from birth and death. Parting from birth and death, he achieves emancipation [“vimukti”]. As a result of emancipation, he clearly sees the Buddha-Nature. This is what we mean when we say that what the Bodhisattva knows, sees, and realises is not something that obtains in the world. O good man! This is what the world does not know, see, or realise."

Chapter 33 PG 318-319
"O good man! If you desire to know what the Buddha-Nature is, listen carefully, listen carefully. I shall now analyse and explain it to you.
"“O good man! The Buddha-Nature is none other than the All-Void of “Paramartha-satya” [Ultimate Truth]. The All-Void of “Paramartha-satya” is Wisdom. We say "All-Void". This does not refer to no Void [any Voidness], nor non-Void. Knowledge [“jnana”] sees the Void and the non-Void, the Eternal and the non-Eternal, Suffering and Bliss, the Self and the non-Self. The Void refers to all births and deaths. The Non-Void refers to Great Nirvana. And the non-Self is nothing but birth and death. The Self refers to Great Nirvana.
"If one sees the All-Void, but does not see the non-Void, we do not speak of this as the Middle Path. Or if one sees the non-Self of all things, but does not see the Self, we do not call this the Middle Path.
"The Middle Path is the Buddha-Nature. For this reason, the Buddha-Nature is Eternal and there is no change. As ignorance overspreads [them], all beings are unable to see. The sravaka and pratyekabuddha see the All-Void of all things. But they do not see the non-Void. Or they see the non-Self of all things, but they do not see the Self. Because of this, they are unable to gain the All-Void of “Paramartha-satya”. Since they fail to gain the All-Void of “Paramartha-satya”, they fail to enact the Middle Path. Since there is no Middle Path, there is no seeing of the Buddha-Nature."
"O good man! There are three seeings of the Middle Path [i.e. constituting the Middle Path]. The one is the definitely blissful action; the second is the definitely sorrowful action; the third is the sorrow-bliss action.
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Astus » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:49 am

As I see it, the Nirvana Sutra uses the word "Void" in different contexts with different meanings. Just as you said, there is a list for 11 kinds, but there can be more depending on context. But let's take a different turn on this. Can you give a definition of buddha-nature? In everyday terms possibly. Then we can match it with whatever meaning of emptiness, or we can't. :thinking:
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Anders » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:20 am

Will wrote:
Like a bulldog, you just will not let it go.

The thread title & the OP reveal that good old Thornbush (whatever happened to him?) in 2009 started this "conversation" with no parameters, other than subjects dealing with the Mahaparinirvana Sutra.

Thus there can be and are, different conversations dealing with the sutra, some of which do not overlap.

So go in peace, my child.


Is this really called for? It's a discussion forum.
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I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Will » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:05 pm

Anders wrote:
Will wrote:
Like a bulldog, you just will not let it go.

The thread title & the OP reveal that good old Thornbush (whatever happened to him?) in 2009 started this "conversation" with no parameters, other than subjects dealing with the Mahaparinirvana Sutra.

Thus there can be and are, different conversations dealing with the sutra, some of which do not overlap.

So go in peace, my child.


Is this really called for? It's a discussion forum.


Just as you did not care for my post and discussed it, just as Malcolm had a point to make and discussed it, so also I had a point to make and discussed it.

My secondary point is that not every post must be tightly congruent with what poster X or Y wants.

I regret the "go in peace" crack, but with editing limited in time, I did not get back to delete it soon enough. Any Mod may do so, please.

But are we not devolving into the frowned upon meta discussion? Just report my previous post Anders or write me privately.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:33 am

Astus wrote:As I see it, the Nirvana Sutra uses the word "Void" in different contexts with different meanings. Just as you said, there is a list for 11 kinds, but there can be more depending on context. But let's take a different turn on this. Can you give a definition of buddha-nature? In everyday terms possibly. Then we can match it with whatever meaning of emptiness, or we can't. :thinking:


HEY ASTUS

the last qoute I gave was the Buddha giving you the definition of Buddha nature(chapter 33)

in truth the only true discription of Buddha nature would be when a 10th level Bodhisattva sees it(but a glimmer) even at this point he is not sure what he saw and ponders what it could be(this is in the sutra also I can mine the qoute if nessecary?)

as the Lotus sutra states the LAW is beyond comprehension PG27(burton watson trans) PG 24 it can only be understood amonst Buddhas,even the 10th level Bodhisattva can only spot it,when he SEES IT(he will no longer be a Bodhisattva but will be a Buddha the tainted ego self ends instantly only the buddha remains)

READ PG 31 of the lotus sutra this explains it ALL(the nirvana sutra is a comentary of the Lotus sutra in all rights)
when I first read it I thought it was simply talking about just new knowledge I never knew that the BUDDHA WISDOM was actually the LAST PRACTICE till I read the Nirvana sutra and it put it as the last practice behind the 11 types of emptiness..

THE QOUTE(notice VERY CAREFULLY page 30,31 is where the 5000 monks walked out,they had thought they had attained final extinction(11 types of emptiness)then the Buddha says that is not the end BUDDHA WISDOM(ALL VOID) is the final teaching.
"The Buddhas, the World-Honored Ones , wish to open the door of Buddha wisdom to all living beings, to allow them to attain purity. That is why they appear in the world. They wish to show the Buddha wisdom to living beings, and therefore they appear in the world. They wish to cause living beings to awaken to the Buddha wisdom, and therefore they appear in the world. They wish to induce living beings to enter the path of Buddha wisdom, and therefore they appear in the world. Shariputra, this is the one great reason for which the Buddhas appear in the world."

The Buddha said to Shariputra, "The Buddhas, the Tathagatas, simply teach and convert the Bodhisattvas. All the things they do are at all times done for this one purpose. They simply wish to show the Buddha wisdom to living beings and enlighten them to it.

"Shariputra, the Tathagatas have only a single Buddha vehicle which they employ in order to preach the Dharma to living beings. They do not have any other vehicle a second one or a third one 1. Shariputra, the Dharma preached by all the Buddhas of the ten directions is the same as this.

"Shariputra, the Buddhas of the past used countless numbers of expedient means, various causes and conditions, and words of simile and parable in order to expound the doctrines for the sake of living beings. These doctrines are all for the sake of the one Buddha vehicle. These living beings, by listening to the doctrines of the Buddhas, are all eventually able to attain wisdom embracing all species.

Shariputra, when the Buddhas of the future make their appearance in the world, they too will use countless numbers of expedient means, various causes and conditions, and words of simile and parable in order to expound the doctrines for the sake of living beings. These doctrines will all be for the sake of the one Buddha vehicle. And these living beings, by listening to the doctrines of the Buddhas, will all eventually be able to attain wisdom embracing all species.

"Shariputra, the Buddhas, the World-Honored Ones, who exist at present in the countless hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, and millions of Buddha lands in the ten directions, benefit and bring peace and happiness to living beings in large measure, these Buddhas too use countless numbers of expedient means, various causes and conditions, and words of simile and parable in order to expound the doctrines for the sake of living beings. These doctrines are all for the sake of the one Buddha vehicle. And these living beings, by listening to the doctrines of the Buddhas, are all eventually able to attain wisdom embracing all species.

"Shariputra, these Buddhas simply teach and convert the Bodhisattvas. They do it because they wish to show the Buddha wisdom to living beings. They do it because they wish to use the Buddha wisdom to enlighten living beings. They do it because they wish to cause living beings to enter the path of Buddha wisdom.

"Shariputra, I too will now do the same, I know that living beings have various desires. Attachments that are deeply implanted in their minds. Taking cognizance of this basic nature of theirs, I will therefore use various causes and conditions, words of simile and parable, and the power of expedient means and expound the Dharma for them. Shariputra, I do this so that all of them may attain the one Buddha vehicle and wisdom embracing all species.

HEY now go back and read my qoute on the Nirvana sutra where it says the 11 emptiness are a stage before the BUDDHA WISDOM(ALL VOID)
this concides with the monks who have attained the 11 types of emptiness and they walked out cause they thought it was nirvana(final extinction) which it wasnt WISDOM(buddha wisdom/ALL void) is the final extinction.PG 30/31/32/35 LS

now read PG 48/49/50 of the LS(burton wastson)here shariputra states that they thought the law of emptiness was the last STAGE but it was not(which is why the 5000 monks got up an walked out casue the Buddha taught the BUDDHA WISDOM was the LAST STAGE.(PG 30/31) NOW jump back to the NIRVANA SUTRA which states the 11 types of emptiness was a stage behind BUDDHA WISDOM(ALL VOID) and the lotus sutra become more clearer now and you can see how those who followed the 11 types of emptiness got up and walked out cause they thought it was the last stage pg 30 then in pg 31 the Buddha states the last stage BUDDHA WISDOM,now go to the nirvana sutra I qouted earlier and you will see why this argument in the LS started to begin with.(those who had attained the LAW of emptiness thought it was the last stage then the Buddha pissed them off cause he said the LAST stage is actually BUDDHA WISDOM(pg 31)which is what the nirvana sutra states.(order of practice)

the law of emptiness as discribed in the 2nd turning has already been established as PROVISIONAL,which is why 5000 monks got up and walked out,when the LAW of WISDOM(BUDDHA WISDOM/ALL VOID) was established as the Last stage.

this itself already shows the seperation of emptiness and all void
anouther example is when the Buddha says he is the self/true self
we all know the self is the tainted ego self we are to get rid of which is why we practice NONSELF/emptiness YET the other meaning is TRUE self which is COMPLETELY different from the tainted self we are to end.
SELF/SELF,TRUE SELF SAME words completely diffrent meanings.

I hope I havent confused you I chose to not put all the qoutes in the post cause it would make this post MASSIVE

I thought next time to post the qoutes striped down and connect them together to show what i mean.

Peace and Love
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Astus » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:39 am

So, let's look at that definition then, if you say it covers all there is to cover.

"“O good man! The Buddha-Nature is none other than the All-Void of “Paramartha-satya” [Ultimate Truth]. The All-Void of “Paramartha-satya” is Wisdom. We say "All-Void". This does not refer to no Void [any Voidness], nor non-Void. Knowledge [“jnana”] sees the Void and the non-Void, the Eternal and the non-Eternal, Suffering and Bliss, the Self and the non-Self. The Void refers to all births and deaths. The Non-Void refers to Great Nirvana. And the non-Self is nothing but birth and death. The Self refers to Great Nirvana.
"If one sees the All-Void, but does not see the non-Void, we do not speak of this as the Middle Path. Or if one sees the non-Self of all things, but does not see the Self, we do not call this the Middle Path.
"The Middle Path is the Buddha-Nature. For this reason, the Buddha-Nature is Eternal and there is no change. As ignorance overspreads [them], all beings are unable to see. The sravaka and pratyekabuddha see the All-Void of all things. But they do not see the non-Void. Or they see the non-Self of all things, but they do not see the Self. Because of this, they are unable to gain the All-Void of “Paramartha-satya”. Since they fail to gain the All-Void of “Paramartha-satya”, they fail to enact the Middle Path. Since there is no Middle Path, there is no seeing of the Buddha-Nature."
"O good man! There are three seeings of the Middle Path [i.e. constituting the Middle Path]. The one is the definitely blissful action; the second is the definitely sorrowful action; the third is the sorrow-bliss action.


Summing it up:
All-Void is the Void of all things, the non-Self of all things AND the non-Void of Buddha-Nature, the Self of Buddha-Nature.

So, there are all things, the five aggregates and the six faculties, and they are selfless, empty. And there is buddha-nature which is Self, non-Void. But, if we look at ourselves, our present experience, what else is there beyond the five aggregates and six faculties? And I mean right now. Can you point at it?
My take on this is that since there can't be anything else besides all things (five aggregates, six faculties), buddha-nature is actually the non-attachment to things, just as in Yogacara's three nature teaching. And that non-attachment is the basic nature, the eternal self, which is equivalent to emptiness. But, if you say this is not so, please explain what then is buddha-nature outside of all things.

The Awakening of Faith in Mahayana says,

1. Truly Empty

Suchness is empty because from the beginning it has never been related to any defiled states of existence, it is free from all marks of individual distinction of things, and it has nothing to do with thoughts conceived by a deluded mind. It should be understood that the essential nature of Suchness is neither with marks nor without marks; neither not with marks nor not without marks; nor is it both with and without marks simultaneously; it is neither with a single mark nor with different marks; neither not with a single mark nor not with different marks; nor is it both with a single and with different marks simultaneously. In short, since all unenlightened men discriminate with their deluded minds from moment to moment, they are alienated from Suchness; hence, the definition "empty"; but once they are free from their deluded minds, they will find that there is nothing to be negated.

2. Truly Nonempty

Since it has been made clear that the essence of all things is empty, i.e., devoid of illusions, the true Mind is eternal, permanent, immutable, pure, and self-sufficient; therefore, it is called "nonempty." And also there is no trace of particular marks to be noted in it, as it is the sphere that transcends thoughts and is in harmony with enlightenment alone.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:43 pm

Astus wrote:So, let's look at that definition then, if you say it covers all there is to cover.

"“O good man! The Buddha-Nature is none other than the All-Void of “Paramartha-satya” [Ultimate Truth]. The All-Void of “Paramartha-satya” is Wisdom. We say "All-Void". This does not refer to no Void [any Voidness], nor non-Void. Knowledge [“jnana”] sees the Void and the non-Void, the Eternal and the non-Eternal, Suffering and Bliss, the Self and the non-Self. The Void refers to all births and deaths. The Non-Void refers to Great Nirvana. And the non-Self is nothing but birth and death. The Self refers to Great Nirvana.
"If one sees the All-Void, but does not see the non-Void, we do not speak of this as the Middle Path. Or if one sees the non-Self of all things, but does not see the Self, we do not call this the Middle Path.
"The Middle Path is the Buddha-Nature. For this reason, the Buddha-Nature is Eternal and there is no change. As ignorance overspreads [them], all beings are unable to see. The sravaka and pratyekabuddha see the All-Void of all things. But they do not see the non-Void. Or they see the non-Self of all things, but they do not see the Self. Because of this, they are unable to gain the All-Void of “Paramartha-satya”. Since they fail to gain the All-Void of “Paramartha-satya”, they fail to enact the Middle Path. Since there is no Middle Path, there is no seeing of the Buddha-Nature."
"O good man! There are three seeings of the Middle Path [i.e. constituting the Middle Path]. The one is the definitely blissful action; the second is the definitely sorrowful action; the third is the sorrow-bliss action.


Summing it up:
All-Void is the Void of all things, the non-Self of all things AND the non-Void of Buddha-Nature, the Self of Buddha-Nature.

So, there are all things, the five aggregates and the six faculties, and they are selfless, empty. And there is buddha-nature which is Self, non-Void. But, if we look at ourselves, our present experience, what else is there beyond the five aggregates and six faculties? And I mean right now. Can you point at it?
My take on this is that since there can't be anything else besides all things (five aggregates, six faculties), buddha-nature is actually the non-attachment to things, just as in Yogacara's three nature teaching. And that non-attachment is the basic nature, the eternal self, which is equivalent to emptiness. But, if you say this is not so, please explain what then is buddha-nature outside of all things.

The Awakening of Faith in Mahayana says,

1. Truly Empty

Suchness is empty because from the beginning it has never been related to any defiled states of existence, it is free from all marks of individual distinction of things, and it has nothing to do with thoughts conceived by a deluded mind. It should be understood that the essential nature of Suchness is neither with marks nor without marks; neither not with marks nor not without marks; nor is it both with and without marks simultaneously; it is neither with a single mark nor with different marks; neither not with a single mark nor not with different marks; nor is it both with a single and with different marks simultaneously. In short, since all unenlightened men discriminate with their deluded minds from moment to moment, they are alienated from Suchness; hence, the definition "empty"; but once they are free from their deluded minds, they will find that there is nothing to be negated.

2. Truly Nonempty

Since it has been made clear that the essence of all things is empty, i.e., devoid of illusions, the true Mind is eternal, permanent, immutable, pure, and self-sufficient; therefore, it is called "nonempty." And also there is no trace of particular marks to be noted in it, as it is the sphere that transcends thoughts and is in harmony with enlightenment alone.


HEY ASTUS

Truely empty would be the 11 types of emptiness

Truely nonempty seem to be more in line with Buddha nature

the first gets rid of almost all of false self the last is the realisation that the self(tea) is empty but the cup(enlightenemnt) that held it is not empty of itself.

although not being empty of itself denotes a different meaning then being simply empty.

also notice something important in that qoute chapt 33

[quote]"“O good man! The Buddha-Nature is none other than the All-Void of “Paramartha-satya” [Ultimate Truth]. The All-Void of “Paramartha-satya” is Wisdom. We say "All-Void". This does not refer to no Void [any Voidness], nor non-Void. Knowledge [“jnana”] sees the Void and the non-Void, the Eternal and the non-Eternal, Suffering and Bliss, the Self and the non-Self. The Void refers to all births and deaths. The Non-Void refers to Great Nirvana.

The ALL VOID does not refer to the no/non void,the VOID(denoteing plain emptiness) refers to all births and deaths non void refers to the great nirvana,TRUELY EMPTY would be in line with the void of birth and death,and TRUELY NOT EMPTY would be in line with the non void that refers to great nirvana.

pg 26 OF THE NIRVANA SUTRA "what is the meaning/referent?Non-self is samsara,the self is Tathagata:Impermanace is the sravakas and pratyekabuddhas,the Eternal is the Thagatas Dharmakaya:suffering is all the tirthikas,Bliss is Nirvana:the impure is all compunded (samskrta)dharmas,the Pure is th True Dharma that the Buddha and Bodhisattvas have.this is called non perversion/non inversion.

nonself/emptiness/impermanace all of this is apart of samsara the Buddha nature is not(still mining the qoute for Buddha nature outside)but the fact theses things are in samsara would show Buddha nature is outside them.

"you stated"our present experience, what else is there beyond the five aggregates and six faculties? And I mean right now. Can you point at it?"
yea the jivitaka principle itself(spelled that wrong I think simple meaning is life force)
you dont need the 5 aggregates or 6 tainted faculties to exist.I wouldnt say it is BEYOND those things but their is life in the formless realms which doesn't contain,sight,smell,touch,hearing,the only thing present is awareness of existance(like being in darkness)to me its a scary place to exist in.

this shows that you dont need the 5 aggregates to exists.next what is beyond it is the rupa/dharmakaya of the Buddha chapter 5 on the Adamantine Body this is what is BEYOND our 5 aggregate.
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Astus » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:16 am

Son of Buddha wrote:yea the jivitaka principle itself(spelled that wrong I think simple meaning is life force)
you dont need the 5 aggregates or 6 tainted faculties to exist.I wouldnt say it is BEYOND those things but their is life in the formless realms which doesn't contain,sight,smell,touch,hearing,the only thing present is awareness of existance(like being in darkness)to me its a scary place to exist in.

this shows that you dont need the 5 aggregates to exists.next what is beyond it is the rupa/dharmakaya of the Buddha chapter 5 on the Adamantine Body this is what is BEYOND our 5 aggregate.


Identifying buddha-nature with the life force (jīvitendriya or simply jīva) is a strange idea, since believing that the life force is the self is among the four mistaken identification as you can read in the Diamond Sutra (jīvagrāha) and others. It is still part of samsara, and a common mistaken view of Hindus (jīvātman).

As for the formless realms, four of the five aggregates are only mental, and they are present there. What in chapter five the Buddha says regarding the aggregates and faculties is, "He is no skandha, sphere or realm, and yet he is the skandha, sphere, and realm." What can we make of this?

Nagarjuna says (Mulamadhyamakakarika, tr. from "Ocean of Reasoning"):

"If the aggregates were the self,
It would have to arise and cease.
If it were different from the aggregates,
It would not have the characteristics of the aggregates."

(18.1)

So, if the self is same as the aggregates, that means the self is impermanent. How could then it be truly a self? But, if it is different from the aggregates, such a self would have no ability to sense, perceive, comprehend or experience anything at all. Certainly such a self would be useless and meaningless. So in the same chapter we also find this:

"The Buddhas have designated a self;
And have taught that there is no self;
And also have taught that
There is neither self nor selflessness."


So, as we know from the Nirvana Sutra too, there is the self-view of ordinary people, the teaching of selflessness of the sravakas, and the teaching of true self of the buddha-nature. And that true self is neither the self or ordinary people nor the selflessness of sravakas. What is the true self then? Nagarjuna also says there:

"Through the elimination of karma and affliction there is nirvana.
Karma and affliction come from conceptual thought.
These come from mental fabrication.
Fabrication ceases through emptiness."


The chapter on the Adamantine Body sums up succinctly, saying: "We cannot express." and also "It is the All-Wonderful, the one Eternal, and the one not presumable." This one the Samdhinirmocana Sutra (ch. 2, tr. Keenan) explains clearly:

"Good son, the term 'conditioned' is a provisional word invented by the First Teacher. Now, if it is a provisional word invented by the First Teacher, then it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination. And if it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination, then, in the final analysis, such an imagined description does not validate a real thing. Therefore, the conditioned does not exist. Good son, the term 'unconditioned' is also invented from language [and it also validates nothing real].
"Furthermore, besides the conditioned and the unconditioned, any other expression that exists in language is the same. But, it might be objected, is it not true that there are no expressions without some [corresponding] reality? What, then, is the reality here? I would reply that it is that reality apart from language and realized in the perfect awakening of the saints through their holy wisdom and insight apart from all names and words. It is because they desire to lead others to realize perfect awakening that they provisionally establish [such expressions] as 'the conditioned' as verbal descriptions.
"Good son, the term 'unconditioned' is also a word provisionally invented by the First Teacher. Now, if the First Teacher provisionally invented this word, then it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination. And, if it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination, then, in the final analysis, such an imagined description does not validate a real thing. Therefore, the unconditioned does not exist. Good son, the term 'conditioned' is also invented from language [and it validates nothing real].
"Besides 'the unconditioned' and 'the conditioned,' any other expression that exists in language is the same. But [some may object], is it not true that there are no expressions without some [corresponding] reality? What then is that reality here? I would reply that it is that reality apart from language and realized in the perfect awakening of the saints through their wisdom and insight apart from all names and words. It is because they desire to lead others to realize perfect awakening that they establish [such expressions] as 'the unconditioned' as verbal descriptions."


Thus both self and selflessness are verbal fabrications, nothing more. True Self is beyond language constructs, it is the very understanding that everything there is is simply conceptual imagination.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:44 am

Identifying buddha-nature with the life force (jīvitendriya or simply jīva) is a strange idea, since believing that the life force is the self is among the four mistaken identification as you can read in the Diamond Sutra (jīvagrāha) and others. It is still part of samsara, and a common mistaken view of Hindus (jīvātman).

As for the formless realms, four of the five aggregates are only mental, and they are present there. What in chapter five the Buddha says regarding the aggregates and faculties is, "He is no skandha, sphere or realm, and yet he is the skandha, sphere, and realm." What can we make of this?

HEY

well the diamond sutra is provisional to the Lotus sutra and the emptiness that was taught in it was considered provisional by the Lotus sutra,also I highly doubt the Buddha told his followers that emptiness is provisional teachings now he will teach you the Buddha wisdom which is EMPTINESS??????does that make any sense to you???

emptiness is provisional then 5000 monks got up and left cause they didnt like knowing that the true teachings wasnt emptiness instead the true teaching was emptiness???

many people say the Lotus sutra was a sutra that pointed to the law but didnt actually tell you what it is,pg 30-31 does tell you the new law Buddha wisdom/the nirvana sutra tells you that 11 types of emptiness was the teachings that was taught before the last and final teaching which is Buddha wisdom,so the law was exspounded the question is what is this new law???

What is Buddha wisdom/WISDOM/eye of wisdom/all void??? and how can it be emptiness when you look at the scene found in the lotus sutra,to say its emptiness it just doesnt add up.think about it If I told you the past law of emptiness is provisional and the new true law is emptiness,you would say yea thats not really new its the same law,why did they get up and leave??then why would many stand up and say WOW I never knew this new law never heard of before and then go into detail about thinking emptiness was the last teachings and how wrong he was for beleiveing it,BUT now he has the last and true teaching of..........Emptiness(think about it)

my point of the 5 aggreagates is that their are people who dont have sense of touch(rare but exists) no eye sight/no hearing/and their are animal species that are missing many aggreagates/also in the pali canon their is a realm where thier is no sight/touch/body/hearing/smell/just existance in spansive space this is what i am refering to.you dont need the 5 aggreagates to exist.also many in hindu viewed the 5 aggreagates as the self,yet the
jīvātman inst quite the 5 aggregates is it ?

Do I think the jīvātman is Buddha nature??not sure I right now dont think it is I think it is APART of IT,but not the fullest aspect of it.kinda like a pie 1/2 Jivatman the other half Buddha.ideally Buddha would be the purest jīvātman,but not all Jivatman are Buddhas are they.

Have you ever read the Rotnagotravibhaga????between that the lotus sutra and the Nirvana sutra/srimala also,you end up with monism.(of course the rest of the Buddhist sutras wouldnt disagree they all lead to monism too they are just not as blatant about it,their is only ONE Full enlightenment and no Buddha mind is better than anouther Buddha mind in truth its the same enlightenement same mind just a different body/Shakyamuni Buddha is vairocana Buddha and is also Burning light Buddha/and Amitayus is no differnt in enlightened mind their all words for the same being same mind.to discriminate the difference between one Buddha and anouther is to say one Full enlightenemnt is better than anouther in the end its the SAME=Monism

yes the Lankavatara makes it clear words themselves are a discrimination,the purpose of words is to discribe one thing from anouther and their rooted in DUALISM which is why the lotus sutra also states that words cannot discribe the ........................................................

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Astus » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:56 pm

Here I show how in the Lotus Sutra it is the realisation of emptiness, prajnaparamita, that is the true teaching of the Buddha and the path for the bodhisattvas, the single vehicle. I also show the difference between the attached view of emptiness of the sravakas and the complete view of the bodhisattvas. The difference lies in bodhicitta, the will to buddhahood to liberate all beings.

In chapter 2 of the Lotus Sutra those five thousand monks left because of their arrogance. In the next chapter Shariputra says,

"Formerly, I was attached to false views
And was a teacher of brahmans.
The Bhagavat, knowing my mind,
Removed the false views and taught nirvana.
I got rid of false views completely
And attained the teaching of emptiness.
At that time I considered myself
To have attained nirvana.
But now I have become aware
That this was not the real nirvana.
When I become a buddha
I shall be endowed with the thirty-two marks,
And be honored by devas, humans, yakṣas, and nāgas.
Only then can it be said that I have
Permanently attained nirvana without residue."


The first wrong view he had was the teaching of Hindus, the teaching of eternal self. That was removed by the teaching of emptiness of self. But attachment to emptiness is still wrong, and so he finally realised that the path of the bodhisattva is the one that leads to perfect enlightenment.

In chapter four we hear a similar statement from the elder disciples of the Buddha,

"Now we sit with weary bodies and only contemplate emptiness, signlessness, and wishlessness. Neither the bodhisattva teaching, nor the carefree sporting with transcendent powers, nor the pure buddha worlds, nor helping sentient beings attain enlightenment produced any eager desire in us."

What they did not have was bodhicitta. So, the essential difference between a sravaka and a bodhisattva is bodhicitta. And what is the difference in their paths? In chapter one the Lotus Sutra says,

"To those seeking for the śrāvaka vehicle he taught the Dharma with respect to the Four Noble Truths, causing them to overcome birth, old age, illness, and death and to attain nirvana. He taught the Dharma with respect to dependent origination to the pratyekabuddhas; and to the bodhisattvas he taught the Dharma with respect to the six perfections (pāramitās), causing them to attain highest, complete enlightenment and perfect all-knowledge (sarva jñātā)."

It is the four noble truths, dependent origination and the six paramitas that are the paths of the three vehicles. And the meaning of the one vehicle is made clear in the second chapter,

"Even though the buddhas of the future
Will teach hundreds of thousands of koṭis
Of innumerable paths to the Dharma,
Their teachings will actually be
For the sake of the single vehicle.
All the buddhas, the Best of Humans,
Know that all dharmas are ever without substance
And that the buddha-seeds germinate
Through dependent origination.
That is why they will teach the single vehicle.
Having realized on the terrace of enlightenment
That the state of the Dharma
Is permanent and unchangeable in this world,
The Leaders will teach with skillful means."


The dharmas are without substance, without essence, and the buddhas teach many methods (the three vehicles) to help beings realise this. That there is a difference between the limited view of emptiness of the sravakas and the complete view of Mahayana is shown in the twelfth chapter,

"Those who were originally śrāvakas explained the śrāvaka practices in the air; and now they all practice to understand the meaning of emptiness of the Mahayana."

This emptiness of the Mahayana is the single vehicle itself, stated in the same chapter,

"You have expounded the essential character of dharmas
And revealed the teaching of the single vehicle."


And that is what bodhisattvas practice, as said in the first chapter,

"There are also bodhisattvas
Who are teaching innumerable sentient beings
The Dharma of tranquility
In various ways.
Furthermore, I see bodhisattvas
Who have perceived the essential character
Of all dharmas (phenomena) to be without duality,
Just like empty space.
I also see heirs of the buddhas
Who are seeking the highest path
Through this subtle wisdom,
Their minds free of attachment."


And the instruction on this practice with clarification is given in the fourteenth chapter,

"Furthermore, the bodhisattva mahāsattvas perceive the emptiness of all dharmas in their true aspect. All things are unerring, unmoving, nonreturning, irreversible, and like empty space which lacks substance. They are beyond all language. They are not produced, nor do they emerge, nor do they arise. They do not have any name or mark, and in reality they have no substance. They are immeasurable, limitless, without obstacles or obstructions. They exist only through dependent origination, arising through error. That is why I teach the permanent joy of perceiving the aspects of all existent things in this way. This is what is known as the second sphere of relationships of a bodhisattva mahāsattva."

And again, to show that this realisation of emptiness is equal to the omniscience of the buddhas, chapter five shows how it is also the single vehicle,

"Just like the great cloud that rains upon all the grasses, trees, shrubs, and herbs, whose seeds are watered and which grow according to their capacities, the Tathāgata teaches the Dharma of one aspect and character; that is to say, the character of liberation, dispassion, and cessation which ultimately leads to omniscience.
...
It is just like the grasses, trees, shrubs, and herbs that do not know their own natures, whether they are superior, mediocre, or inferior. Yet the Tathāgata knows the teachings of one aspect and character, the character of liberation, dispassion, cessation, complete nirvana, and eternal tranquility which ultimately leads to emptiness."


With this understanding should the Lotus Sutra itself be taught, as the tenth chapter instructs,

"The Tathāgata’s chamber is nothing but the great compassion toward all sentient beings. The Tathāgata’s garments are the thoughts of gentleness and perseverance, and the Tathāgata’s seat is the very emptiness of all existing things."

This is a combination of compassion and emptiness, which is the true realisation of a bodhisattva and the buddhas. It is compassion itself that gives the primary difference between the sravakas and bodhisattvas. It is bodhicitta. So it is said by the Buddha in chapter fourteen,

"He should not acquire, comprehend,
Or perceive any phenomenon.
This is what is known
As the sphere of the
Bodhisattva practice.
All dharmas are empty and without substance,
Impermanent, without origination or cessation.
This is known as the sphere
Of the relationships of the wise.
Through the error of discrimination
One sees all existent things
As existing or nonexisting,
Real or unreal,
Produced or unproduced.
Being in a quiet place, the bodhisattva
Carries out practices to control his mind
And remains as firm and unmoved
As Mount Sumeru.
He should regard all dharmas
As being without substance,
Like empty space
Which has no firmness.
All dharmas are neither produced
Nor do they emerge;
They are immovable, nonreturning,
And always remain in their single character."
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:51 am

HEY ASTUS
Sorry in on my phone so i cant copy and paste qoutes,so i will refer to the chapters previously posted and use pg numbers to identify whar i am talking about.

Okay they jist of ur position is that tathagatagarbha is prajnaparmita emptiness and the sravakas had an attached limited view of this eptiness.

Okay 1st did the sravakas have an attached limited view of the epmtiness of the prajnaparmita?

No

Lotus sutra chapt 4 pg 93 they were without attachment-and they belived this emptiness to be unlitimate-they practiced this emptiness and gained its fruits BUT it was not the way-

Chapter 2 pg 49,50 as you can see they gained the understanding of emptiness of the provisional prajnaparmita emptines.and they were no attached to anything.

2nd good digging on the qoutes on emptines.but yet again which emptiness is it talking about?is it talking about prajnaparimita emptines?

With that refer back to mu qoute on page 2 of this forum.

Nirvana sutra chapt 7 emancipation is the not empty empty.
Empty empty is NOT emancipation.

This is to sat that the tahagatagarbha is empty of everything BUT itself,now it is refered to as
emptiness,the emptines tbat is empty of everything but not empty of itself-which is why i told will
:namaste:
on forum pg 2 that emptiness is an aspect of tathagatagarbha but thathagatagarbha isnt empty of itself(this is not how emptiness is traditionally viewed)and it is as you put it earlier NOT TRUELY EMPTY.
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:22 am

Hey again my phone killin me.

with that said the emptiness that is mentioned and you qouted inthe lotus sutra is not the emptiness that the sravakas had learned from ths prajnaparmita sutras-and proclaimedto not be true extinction.the emptiness the lotus sutra is proclaiming is the not empty EMPTY or all void.

Does the dimond sutra teach empty empty which means empti of everything including itself or does it teach not empty empty,which is empty of al but itself as chapter 7 of nirvana sutra dicribes?

Lastly can we furth E prove the prajnaparamita sutras are provisinal or are they the the law of the lotus sutra?

Did they already have an understanding of this law before the LS?
YEZ they understood the dimond sutra law.
Is the prajnaparmita sitra emptiness before the lotus sutra or after it?
BEFORE it pg 26 of the lotus sutra he has taight his doctrine but now he will reveal the truth,also he states he taught them the way to nirvana which u can compare pg 94 it states that emptines was taughr for that purpose.
Pg 48 again the true means to enli tuch tenment was first disclosed inthe lo tus sutra,NOT BEFORE IT, and pg ,86-87and here the buddha makes it clear the doctrine before the lotus sutra is
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:38 am

My phone is agravateing okay the sutra preached before the LS were lesser doctrine and now in the LS is the true law expounded.

You would have to make the prajnaparmita sutras come after the lotus sutra,for it to not be considered a lesser doctrine,then you would have to compare its emptiness with that of the tathagatagarbha,(not empty emptiness)and bring it in line with the eternal buddha LS chap 16 and nivana sutra emptines(not truely empt)for the dimond sutra to not be provisinal.

So as you can see for the prajnamita emptines to be the same as the LS the prajnaparmita sutra would have to come AFTER the LS,cause if came before,then its lesser doctrine,and provisional
As the LS would say the LAW starts here(not before).

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Astus » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:46 am

The Lotus Sutra (妙法蓮華經 , Kumarajiva translation) does not contain words like buddha-nature (佛性), or tathagatagarbha (如来藏), or self-nature (自性), or true suchness (真如). While the actual words "not void" (不空) does appear in chapter 25, it simply means "not in vain" and not the technical term non-empty.

The Prajnaparamita sutras describe the bodhisattva path and they were generally not accepted by sravakas. So what makes you think that they have anything to do with it?

In China it was Zhiyi of Tiantai who elevated the Lotus Sutra as the final teaching and added the NIrvana Sutra to that. However, he also heavily relied on the Mahaprajnaparamitaupadesha, a major work by Nagarjuna. And if you check his Threefold Truth (三諦), the central doctrine of Tiantai, it says that the Middle Way is "Phenomena are both empty of existence and exist provisionally at once", which agrees perfectly with what I have already said.

As for your emphasis on that the buddha-nature is not empty but everything else is empty, what does that mean? It means that it is not empty of the buddha qualities (powers, marks, wisdoms, etc.). In this then there is no difficulty, since the teaching of the three buddha bodies also cover this, but it's still not in disagreement with the other teachings. That's how the dharmakaya is empty and the rupakaya manifests everywhere. In prajnaparamita terms, if a bodhisattva masters one paramita, he has mastered them all. If one realises emptiness completely, the buddha qualities appear naturally. Neither the Lotus Sutra nor the Nirvana Sutra has any other path for bodhisattvas than the six paramitas, just as in the prajnaparamita sutras. So how could there be a disagreement?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:42 am

Astus wrote:The Lotus Sutra (妙法蓮華經 , Kumarajiva translation) does not contain words like buddha-nature (佛性), or tathagatagarbha (如来藏), or self-nature (自性), or true suchness (真如). While the actual words "not void" (不空) does appear in chapter 25, it simply means "not in vain" and not the technical term non-empty.

The Prajnaparamita sutras describe the bodhisattva path and they were generally not accepted by sravakas. So what makes you think that they have anything to do with it?

In China it was Zhiyi of Tiantai who elevated the Lotus Sutra as the final teaching and added the NIrvana Sutra to that. However, he also heavily relied on the Mahaprajnaparamitaupadesha, a major work by Nagarjuna. And if you check his Threefold Truth (三諦), the central doctrine of Tiantai, it says that the Middle Way is "Phenomena are both empty of existence and exist provisionally at once", which agrees perfectly with what I have already said.

As for your emphasis on that the buddha-nature is not empty but everything else is empty, what does that mean? It means that it is not empty of the buddha qualities (powers, marks, wisdoms, etc.). In this then there is no difficulty, since the teaching of the three buddha bodies also cover this, but it's still not in disagreement with the other teachings. That's how the dharmakaya is empty and the rupakaya manifests everywhere. In prajnaparamita terms, if a bodhisattva masters one paramita, he has mastered them all. If one realises emptiness completely, the buddha qualities appear naturally. Neither the Lotus Sutra nor the Nirvana Sutra has any other path for bodhisattvas than the six paramitas, just as in the prajnaparamita sutras. So how could there be a disagreement?




HEY ASTUS

The Lotus sutra contains all those things concering the Tathagatagarbha,"while it is true it doesnt use those words,it does have the Buddha seeds which is in all living beings,true phonemina/and the eternal buddha,the nirvana sutras first 9 chapters could be considered a commentary for the LS chapt 16,the slanders burning their Buddhas seeds can be referenced as the spiritualy deluded(ichantikka) in the Nirvana sutra,the very concept of all living beinbs attaineing enightenment,is also a direct reference ton the Tathagatagarbha.(do you need for me to post qoutes from the sutra?)

the Prajnaparmita sutras do discribe the Bodhisattva path,BUT the Lotus makes it clear the 6 parimitas are not the law,and the emptiness that was taught before the Lotus sutra was not emancipation.

YOU QOUTED: the central doctrine of Tiantai, it says that the Middle Way is "Phenomena are both empty of existence and exist provisionally at once", which agrees perfectly with what I have already said.

MY REPLY:I would need more detail or explaination for this qoute,are you saying it is empty of Tainted defilements and samasa existance)i wouod agree)?I also wouldnt say it exists provisionally at once,the Nirvana sutra speaks of that which is emty of false self and tainted ego defilments,then states the Tathagatagarbha isnt empty of itself and is permanet,so it wouldnt exist "provisionally" it would exist as the reality of all Phenonina.

YOU SAIDAs for your emphasis on that the buddha-nature is not empty but everything else is empty, what does that mean? It means that it is not empty of the buddha qualities (powers, marks, wisdoms, etc.). In this then there is no difficulty, since the teaching of the three buddha bodies also cover this, but it's still not in disagreement with the other teachings.

MY REPLY: yes I agree with that the emptiness that is discribed in the Tathagatagarbha sutras is that it is empty of everything else BUT itslef(NOT truely empty)
the other emptiness that is discribed is that it is empty of everything including itself(which is what most Madhyamaka state about the Buddha they state the Buddha is even empty of itself and therifore is UNDER the law of dependant origination)they stae the Buddha is impermanat and changeing just like ebverything else)

this type of emptiness was only meant to end false self,and was told to not be emancipation.which was why the Buddha ws hard up on his folowers to go BEYOND this idea of emptiness,and see the jewel inside stuck between your own eyes;)

What kind of emptiness is discribed in the Prajnaparamita sutras?is it the same as is taught in the nirvana sutra?can you provide a passage from the text that is in line with Tathagatagarbha view on emptiness?
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:54 am

Neither the Lotus Sutra nor the Nirvana Sutra has any other path for bodhisattvas than the six paramitas, just as in the prajnaparamita sutras. So how could there be a disagreement?


My reply:I base this on 2 views

positional,and doctrinal

the prositional is easy to show.the Lotus sutra states that the True law of all phenomina was not taught before the LS,so the sutras before it would not contain the actual path to emancipation it would only show a partial path leading up the the LS,the LS also states that all the sutras(doctrines) before it were lesser just because of this reason.
with that said is the Prajnamita sutra/(dimond sutra) come before of after the LS??if so then they couldnt contain the actual path to enligtenment.

now doctrinal,by all means I am not a expert of the Prajmita sutras,But the emptiness that is discribed init would be along the lines of empty,empty
which would mean empty of everything even itelf,which means everything including the Buddha is subject to dependant origination,or course feel free to corect me on th view if emptiness that is found in the Prajamita sutras.

the Best view I have come across tht discribes the Emptiness that is empty of all defilments but is not empty of its ultimate reality would be the view of shentong,

Im currently going to purchase the mountain doctrine to see what else dolpopa had to say about the Subject. :anjali:
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