Help in identifying sutra from contents.

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Help in identifying sutra from contents.

Postby lucidaromulus » Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:17 pm

Hi,
i once read a sutra on wikipedia. i can't seem to remember the name. Now i wish to look back and re-read however i can't recall the title. i've tried searching google with all i could remember and could not find it still...

it was about two(i can't recall the number exactly) students asking Buddha about how the beginning of the universe started(or how samsara started).

then Buddha explained that we were all "light beings"(can't remember the term exactly). but then we started consuming(eating) some divine substance on some place and then we started to eat more and more of it. When the divine substance was exhausted, we started consuming other substances in that place. After awhile the gluttony gave us physical bodies and then the beginning of attachment, ignorance and aversion started.

I really hope somebody could shed light on the title of the sutra.
thank you very much :namaste:
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Re: Help in identifying sutra from contents.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:24 pm

Something don't sound quite right. You see in Buddhism ignorance gives rise to fabrications, fabrications to consciousness, consciousness to name and form...

So it seems unlikely that a certain type of form gave rise to the three poisons.
Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of Dependent Co-arising
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu © 1997–2012

Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, I will describe & analyze dependent co-arising for you.

"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.

"And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming.

"And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging.

"And what is craving? These six are classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for smells, craving for tastes, craving for tactile sensations, craving for ideas. This is called craving.

"And what is feeling? These six are classes of feeling: feeling born from eye-contact, feeling born from ear-contact, feeling born from nose-contact, feeling born from tongue-contact, feeling born from body-contact, feeling born from intellect-contact. This is called feeling.

"And what is contact? These six are classes of contact: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, intellect-contact. This is called contact.

"And what are the six sense media? These six are sense media: the eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium. These are called the six sense media.

"And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form.

"And what is consciousness? These six are classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness.

"And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are called fabrications.

"And what is ignorance? Not knowing stress, not knowing the origination of stress, not knowing the cessation of stress, not knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called ignorance.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

That's my take anyway.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Help in identifying sutra from contents.

Postby Anders » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:47 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Something don't sound quite right. You see in Buddhism ignorance gives rise to fabrications, fabrications to consciousness, consciousness to name and form...

So it seems unlikely that a certain type of form gave rise to the three poisons.


Nah, the sutra exists. It talks about the developments of worlds in actual time, ie cosmology, not the structural dependent origination of beings in general, which is more of a soteriological take.

Aromolous, I think the sermon you are looking for is the Aggañña Sutta in the Digha Nikaya.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Help in identifying sutra from contents.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:54 pm

Anders Honore wrote:Nah, the sutra exists. It talks about the developments of worlds in actual time, ie cosmology, not the structural dependent origination of beings in general, which is more of a soteriological take.

Aromolous, I think the sermon you are looking for is the Aggañña Sutta in the Digha Nikaya.
So one can now diet themselves into the God realms and/or liberation? :smile:

And since when was Buddhist cosmology not soteriological? ;)
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Help in identifying sutra from contents.

Postby Anders » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:59 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:So one can now diet themselves into the God realms and/or liberation? :smile:

And since when was Buddhist cosmology not soteriological? ;)


What it actually tells us is that the state of the world is co-dependent with the mind states of its inhabitants. The more greed, anger and delusion displayed by beings, the worse off the environment is. Sounds familiar here in the 21st century doesn't it?

These gods were too greedy and ate up their resources and so the world changed into a place for less refined beings. That story is repeated several times over until the world and its inhabitants (d)evolve into a place for human habitation.

I don't think cosmology is soteriological in itself.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Help in identifying sutra from contents.

Postby lucidaromulus » Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:17 pm

thank you both very much!

thank you Anders Honore for helping me identify the sutta.

and thank you gregkavarnos for your views and introducing to me another sutra.

after re-reading the agganna sutta. it seems i was mistaken the last time i read it....i thought it to be the origination of all things.

is there such a thing as the first dependent origination? i mean since everything inter depends on each other, how did the first dependence start? or is there even such a thing as the first ever dependent origination event?
is there a sutra/teaching by Buddha that addresses if there is or there is the first ever dependent origination event?

pardon my very limited knowledge as i'm just starting to learn more about Buddhism(well i've been on since birth due to family but then was i ignorant and knew nothing)

thank you all again for sharing
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Re: Help in identifying sutra from contents.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:27 pm

See this thread for some answers, including a couple of Sutta:
viewtopic.php?f=66&t=7811&start=0
:namaste:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Help in identifying sutra from contents.

Postby Anders » Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:34 pm

lucidaromulus wrote:is there such a thing as the first dependent origination? i mean since everything inter depends on each other, how did the first dependence start? or is there even such a thing as the first ever dependent origination event?
is there a sutra/teaching by Buddha that addresses if there is or there is the first ever dependent origination event?

pardon my very limited knowledge as i'm just starting to learn more about Buddhism(well i've been on since birth due to family but then was i ignorant and knew nothing)

thank you all again for sharing


The Buddha was very explicit on this: Samsara is without a discernible beginning.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Help in identifying sutra from contents.

Postby lucidaromulus » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:26 am

once again i thank the both of you for sharing :namaste:
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Re: Help in identifying sutra from contents.

Postby plwk » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:37 am

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
'When this is, that is.
"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
"'When this isn't, that isn't.
"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration.
A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabrications, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.
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