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Kamma_2 Questions - Dhamma Wheel

Kamma_2 Questions

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible.
Nosta
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Kamma_2 Questions

Postby Nosta » Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:36 pm

1- Kamma law is a hard one to get. There are some situations in real life that makes me a lot of confusion, so let me see if i can explain it, so you can understand my doubts and help me.

For example, lets imagine that once i killed someone.Thats the cause (kamma) for a future "ugly" result (vipaka) to me.

So, some years later or maybe in the next life, whatever, the result/fruits (vipaka) of my bad action is this: a thug stoles me all the money and gives me a shot with his gun on my leg...Now, the fruit (vipaka) of my bad action "expired" and i "paid" for the action i did in the past (i killed someone). Now lets see my confusion: isnt strange that the result (vipaka) of my bad action is the cause (kamma) of a bad action of other person? Remember, the other guy (the thug) shot me on the leg and stole my money, and thats bad for him, it will cause him a bad result in the future(for example, he may get his house burned in a storm).
Is this the way that kamma works, with the vipaka of some people being the kamma of others??

Kill someone (kamma) ---> Get shot (vipaka)
Give a shot (kamma)----> Get house burn (vipaka)


This is just an example of course, one could create lots of other examples.

2- Another question: some people see kamma as a "moral" law, and thats bad because means that there is some kind of entity or inteligence behind the tissue reality. So, i started to think what kamma may be, and i concluded something that i would like you to see if is what Buddha said or not. In my opinion, there is not exactly a kamma law. What happens is that when you commit a bad action, thats the cause of a "whirlpool" of confusion on your mind (or 5 skandas, or conscience, whatever). Like if you have created a cloud on you. In the future, be it in this life or next one, you will, under the right circunstances, be under that "cloud", under that mental state of confusion you created. I dont know how to explain it well (specially because i dont speak english) but my basic idea is that kamma is not exactly a moral law. The reason why you get good or bad fruits has to be with the increase or decrease of your mental state/lucidity. What do you have to say about this?

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Adrien
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby Adrien » Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:08 pm

I have some questions too :

3) If two people make exactly the same gesture, like stabbing someone, with the same intention : will their kamma be different if in one case the victim dies and in the other not ?
(Or : is only cetana important ?)

4) If one person intend to kill someone, but at the end can't do it (because of some physical reason) : has he created bad kamma ?
(Or : is cetana sufficient for creating bad kamma ?)

5) If we do something with only good intentions, like bringing water in some african village, and then it appears that it has done more harm than good : will that create a bad kamma, a good one, or both ?
Last edited by Adrien on Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Please don't hesitate to correct my english if you feel to

Mawkish1983
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby Mawkish1983 » Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:08 pm

See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html

Also, look up the four imponderables (haven't got a link to hand, sorry)

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Sekha
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby Sekha » Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:45 pm

Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

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acinteyyo
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:04 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Zom
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby Zom » Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:31 pm


Nosta
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby Nosta » Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:37 pm

Buddha said something more important, by other words. He said that we should analyze his teachings. I am a little disapointed. If i ask about siddhis, if i ask about kamma, etc, the answer is always "That are not important questions". They are important! One should get a general idea and some proofs (or at least good arguments) on how thing works. We should seek if some teaching is important or not!

If you ask chatolics about angels, they will say "not important questions". If you ask muslins about xyzetc they will answer the same, and so on.

:-(

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cooran
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby cooran » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:02 pm

Hello all,

I've always found that Bhikkhu Bodhi's teachings are concise, simple and accurate:



There is a tremendous variety among the living beings existing in the world. People and animals are of different sorts. What is it that causes us to take rebirth in a particular form? Does it happen through coincidence, through accident, by chance without any reason or is there some principle behind it? What is it that determines the form of rebirth we take?
Buddha answers these questions, with the Pali term "kamma". Kamma is the factor which determines the specific form of rebirth, what kind of a person we are, at the outset of our life, and it is kamma again that determines a good number of the experiences that we undergo in the course of our life.

The word "kamma" means literally action, deed or doing. But in Buddhism it means specifically volitional action.

The Buddha says:
"Monks it is volition that I call kamma. For having willed, one then acts by body, speech or mind". What really lies behind all action, the essence of all action, is volition, the power of the will. It is this volition expressing itself as action of body, speech and mind that the Buddha calls kamma.

This means that unintentional action is not kamma. If we accidently step on some ants while walking down the street, that is not the kamma of taking life, for there was no intention to kill. If we speak some statement believing it to be true and it turns out to be false, this is not the kamma of lying, for there is no intention of deceiving.

Kamma manifests itself in three ways, through three "doors" of action. These are body, speech and mind. When we act physically the body serves as the instrument for volition. This is bodily kamma. When we speak, expressing our thoughts and intentions, that is verbal kamma, which can be performed either directly through speech or else indirectly through writing or other means of communications. When we think, plan, desire inwardly, without any outer action, that is mental kamma. What lies behind all these forms of actions is the mind and the chief mental factor which causes the action is the volition.

GO TO http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/kamma.htm for the following links:
Every choice of our's has a tremendous potential for the future
Kamma is like a seed
Type of Kamma Based on the Time of Fruition
Types of Kamma based on Ethical Grounds - Wholesome and Unwholesome Kamma
Why is one intelligent and another dull minded? How is one born ugly and another beautiful?
Survey of Buddhist Cosmology
Mind is the architect of the whole universe
We are not hopeless prisoners of our past
Going beyond kamma - the ultimate aim of the Path


with metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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retrofuturist
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:46 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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jcsuperstar
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby jcsuperstar » Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:09 pm

i found ajahn Thanissaro's description of these things to be very helpful try this book, it'll maybe answer some questions for you, and help you to come up with some new ones too maybe!

Wings to Awakening →
An Anthology from the Pali Canon
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

plwk
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby plwk » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:10 am


plwk
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby plwk » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:17 am


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Wind
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby Wind » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:50 am


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Wind
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby Wind » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:00 am


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acinteyyo
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:46 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Adrien
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby Adrien » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:28 pm

Please don't hesitate to correct my english if you feel to

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acinteyyo
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:41 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Khemadhammo Bhikkhu
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby Khemadhammo Bhikkhu » Sat May 01, 2010 3:15 pm

Many useful things have been said here. Might I just add that the law of kamma is not the same as justice. This is some misunderstanding which I often come across when talking to people. We should not forget that the Blessed One was a discoverer of the law of kamma, not a creator. He did not teach that people deserve to be subject to the ripening of their deeds. ("Deserve" would presume that the law of kamma is some sort of justice of providence.) He simply taught that the law of kamma exists, and in fact, even taught the way to liberate oneself from it.

I would like to emphasize this, because many people misunderstand this. Some people say that Buddhists believe that Africans are poor because they deserve so (because they have given little in their past lives, etc.). This is not correct, in my opinion. The Blessed One never said it is right for people to receive certain results of their kamma. He simply taught about certain laws that exist, and we therefore have to deal with these laws.

Metta,

Khemadhammo Bhikkhu.
He stopped and called out to the Blessed One: "Stop, recluse! Stop, recluse!"
"I have stopped, Angulimāla, you stop too."
(M ii.100)

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Sat May 01, 2010 5:16 pm

If you consider that vipaka bears fruition when conditions are favorable, those sets of conditions may be well-nigh infinite. So the particular manifestation will depend on the conditions causing the fruition. Buddha's examples, I always thought, were "for examples," not "This is always what happens;" that is to say, he wasn't laying out a linear diagram of kamma and vipaka but describing some of the possible outcomes to give an understanding of the basic mechanism. ANyway, this is how I took it.

Even though the manifesting condions can be infinite, the underlying vipaka is the same. I think this is why kamma-vipaka is imponderable: who could possibly comprehend all the endless possible permutations of causes and conditions even a single intentional act is both parent and heir to? Except, of course, a Tathaghata?

J
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

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mikenz66
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Re: Kamma_2 Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Sat May 01, 2010 9:14 pm



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